Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, Accredited Financial Counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention.
Leah Hadley [00:00:24]:
Hi there, and welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm so happy that you are here with us today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation that I'm about to have with Liesel. Liesel and I are talking about a really important topic today, and that's about addiction and divorce. And I will tell you that this topic, just, it's a very personal topic for me. When my parents went through their divorce, my father was an alcoholic and really struggled with a gambling addiction. And I honestly had no clue how common that was in people going through divorce until I started doing this work.. And the fact of the matter is there are a lot of families really struggling with addiction.
Leah Hadley [00:01:04]:
And when you add divorce to that, it creates its own unique set of challenges. And Liesel, who obviously you all know at this point, has been a wonderful team member of ours for years. She's a mediator, she's a divorce coach, but you may or may not know that she actually has a history of helping people with substance abuse issues. So she is really a fantastic wealth of information and resources for us on this specific topic today. So Liesel, thanks for being here and having this conversation. Conversation with me.
Liesel Darby [00:01:33]:
Always happy to be here, Leah.
Leah Hadley [00:01:36]:
So, Liesel, tell us a little bit about kind of what your experience has been with addiction and kind of work that you're doing and how you support people now.
Liesel Darby [00:01:44]:
Okay, yeah, so, um, I, I, in my previous life, I was a therapist and I spent 10 years in that field, but the first 6 of those, actually, um, starting with my internship for my master's program, was in addictions. Um, not that I really thought that was the way I wanted to go, but a really great internship opened up, and I thought at the time, I was thinking, if I can work with— this is with adolescents— if I can work with teenagers who are on drugs and alcohol, I will be able to handle anything. And I think I was right. That experience was wonderful. It was very eye-opening. It was, it was just, it was a great experience. And so then I went on to spend 6 years in the addictions field, mainly with drugs and alcohol. But I also learned that addiction is addiction.
Liesel Darby [00:02:42]:
And so you can, you know, while the, the thing you are addicted to might be different, the behaviors are really the same. They have the same kinds of consequences usually, and they all wreak havoc. So that's one thing I learned. And then the, the other part of it is the codependency for the family members who are having to deal with that. And that's something I don't think we talk about enough. And it's— I really want to spend some time on that because that's what messes up the other people until you really get a handle on that. And it is in response to having to living with an addict, whether that's, you know, drug, alcohol addictions, whether that's gambling, whether that's sex addictions. So those are like the 4 major ones that I deal with.
Leah Hadley [00:03:36]:
Yeah. And I'll be honest, I totally saw this before. I was actually very naively, I guess, shocked by the amount of sex addiction that comes up in our cases.
Liesel Darby [00:03:48]:
Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:03:48]:
And I think it's just something that people are really trying to hide and not talk about because there's a lot of shame around it. You know, especially if it, you know, a lot of people feel a real sense of betrayal, you know. And so there are a lot of things going on there, right? But it comes up a lot. And the reason why I'm saying that is because if you're listening to this episode, regardless of, you know, what the addiction is, or if there's, you know, an addicted person that you're dealing with, I want you to know it may not be as uncommon as you think. And that, you know, if we can normalize the conversations around these things, then we can really help and support each other, I think, better.
Liesel Darby [00:04:26]:
Well, you know, it's all about shining the light, right? Addiction thrives in darkness. It thrives in secrecy. And that's where your guilt and shame and all these other things come. And I'm so glad that you said, especially with the sex addiction, and you're right, I see that. Way more than I thought I would. Yeah, in the women that I'm working with, and it's a real thing. And the other added layer to that on top of everything else is that sex addiction will tend to have another layer of betrayal to it because, you know, you step— you might have stepped outside marriage vows with that.
Leah Hadley [00:05:08]:
You—
Liesel Darby [00:05:08]:
it's more personal. You know, because then you're starting to think, well, was I not enough? Or should I have done this for him in bed? Or, you know, what's he getting elsewhere that I'm not providing? I mean, there, there's that level of it when we're talking about sex addiction. Sure. And absolutely. And the shame, because no, you know, so now not only do you not want to talk about it, but you don't want to talk about your sex life, right, with other people. You don't want to talk about his sex life, you know, especially if it's been involving prostitutes or going to the strip clubs, or, you know, we're going to talk about that stuff. But there's another component to sex addiction. Yeah.
Liesel Darby [00:05:50]:
And, you know, it's timely with like the Epstein files. I just, you know, throw that into the mix, that lovely piece of it too. But that would go to the shame. And, you know, people, you don't want your name attached to that kind of stuff, right? Right. Whether that's on a global scale like that is, or just in your own home, and you don't want anybody to know about that, right?
Leah Hadley [00:06:14]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Now I know you, you mentioned that like addiction tends to kind of stay in the darkness and we kind of keep it quiet. If you suspect your spouse has an addiction, maybe you don't actually know, what are some signs that you maybe should be looking out for?
Liesel Darby [00:06:31]:
Okay. Yeah. They're not always obvious. Sometimes they are. Like maybe you've got a spouse who's coming home, you know, drunk, can't even hardly make it through the door, you know, they're getting sick, that kind of stuff. Or you know that they're high, maybe they're smoking weed right in front of the TV. You know, there's all kinds of things that are, you know, something's going on. But a lot of times you might not know.
Liesel Darby [00:06:57]:
And those are things more like, We're going to look for behavioral things that are maybe more subtle. Maybe you notice that at certain times they want to pick a fight, right? Maybe there are times when no matter what you say, that they are belligerent. They, you know, their personality changes, right? Maybe most of the time they're kind of mild-mannered, and then you notice other times they're not so much, and they might start blaming you for things. I think that's a big tip-off. If they start blaming things that are going wrong in their life or that they're not just feeling good or whatever. That's a lot of it. You might see things like unexplained charges on your credit card. That's a big thing.
Liesel Darby [00:07:41]:
Or maybe cash is missing. Maybe you're noticing a lot more ATM withdrawals and it's like, he keeps taking $200 out every day. Where's that? He's not buying me gifts. What's going on with What's going on with that?
Leah Hadley [00:07:56]:
I will say that, you know, a lot of our listeners may or may not be involved in the family finances. As somebody who obviously has supported a lot of people who have a spouse dealing with addiction through the divorce process, it can show up in the finances actually pretty early on. So encourage everybody to be paying attention to their finances. But we've, we've seen some really unfortunate things where you know, some families have just blown through their assets or created a tremendous amount of debt that one of the spouses may be fully unaware of. Right. And so the more that even, even if you're just having conversations about the money checking accounts, just making sure that you're aware of kind of the comings and goings of, you know, money coming in and out is really important.
Liesel Darby [00:08:46]:
Yeah, I was going to say a lot of times I know when they're going through a divorce, they are shocked to learn that there's thousands of dollars of debt on a credit card that they knew nothing about, or there's a secret account that has— or maybe not so secret, but an account they had that's now been depleted, right? Or maybe they start— even in extreme cases, maybe you notice that your spouse is selling off property or selling off things.
Leah Hadley [00:09:14]:
Um, in some unfortunate cases with gambling addiction, yeah, where people are day trading and they lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Liesel Darby [00:09:22]:
Yes. Or if you notice that your jewelry is going missing. Yeah, that's—
Leah Hadley [00:09:27]:
we—
Liesel Darby [00:09:27]:
I associate that more with, um, with drug abuse, not so much with alcoholism or sex addictions, but with, with drug abuse, because they're trying to sell anything they can to buy that next hit. That's really common. Uh, yeah, so if you notice things start going missing That's a big thing. Um, unexplained absences. I, I know it's sometimes suddenly they're gone for days. You don't know where they are, and they come, come back, and a lot of times then they don't want to— there's no accountability. That's the other part of this. There is no accountability on their end as to what's going on, and it's all been blaming on you.
Liesel Darby [00:10:11]:
Either it's being hidden, it's— you're being gaslit. That's another thing, you know, if you know, no, I know I put my earrings here, you know, last week and now they are not there. Oh, you must have, you know, you lost them or whatever. No, I know that they were there. You know, those kinds of things. So basically, if you feel like you're going crazy, that's like a really good indicator that something is wrong.
Leah Hadley [00:10:40]:
Some things not. Oh, we laugh just because it's so sad and true, right?
Liesel Darby [00:10:43]:
It is so sad and true. Gambling, you know, we're talking about people who get involved with owing a lot of money to people. And I know sometimes you might be surprised to come home and find you have an eviction notice on your door and you have no idea what that's about. It's because, you know, your other part has not been paying rent or the mortgage or whatever. And guess what? Now you're out of a home. So those, those kinds of things are unfortunately common.
Leah Hadley [00:11:21]:
So let's say you're early on in the process. Maybe you haven't even decided that you're going to divorce, or maybe you are going for a divorce, but you're still co-parenting with this person. How can you help them?
Liesel Darby [00:11:33]:
What can you do? Nothing. I hate to say that.
Leah Hadley [00:11:39]:
That's the short answer.
Liesel Darby [00:11:40]:
I can't get it any shorter than that. So here's the deal, and this is where codependency comes in. If you're codependent, you want to fix this, right? You want to make—
Leah Hadley [00:11:49]:
I like to fix things. I get it.
Liesel Darby [00:11:51]:
I know, I do too. It's like if I can make something better in my world, by God, I will move heaven and earth And especially if it's my spouse who's somebody that I love, you know, or maybe we're having problems, but I still have, you know, care for them. I want to do what I can to fix this. Yeah. And again, the short answer is you can't. An addiction is something that is out of your control. It is solely the responsibility of the person who is addicted. It is their responsibility to seek treatment, and it is their responsibility to stay out of those behaviors.
Liesel Darby [00:12:30]:
I want to say sober, but, you know, if you're doing gambling addiction, that doesn't quite fit with it. But it's that person's— it's their responsibility to seek treatment and to get better. It is not yours. And when you're codependent, that is one of the hardest things to deal with. It's like, what? Because if you are codependent, and let's talk about this for a little bit, When I was doing— I used to work for an inpatient, a 30-day inpatient facility for drug and alcohol addictions. And one of the things that, you know, we would teach— I would work with the families on codependency, and I would not sugarcoat anything. And probably this sounds really harsh, but I would teach them things like, if you pay their light bill, you're helping to kill them. That's, that's a bold, bad statement.
Leah Hadley [00:13:32]:
And they literally— I felt it in my gut when you said it, I'll be honest.
Liesel Darby [00:13:35]:
I was like, oh, I know. And, and then you, you have kids in the mix, and guess what I had to tell parents is don't rescue. This, this goes into a whole other territory. And I know as a parent I'm like, ah, I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna, I'm gonna not go here, we're going to do something else. But we would have, you know, kids were being taken away from parents because of their use, right? You know, the state will come in because they want to keep that child safe. And what they would a lot of times do is they would place those kids with family members, right? Instead of with, with like a foster parent or somebody else. And, you know, we would have a hard time with that because you say, well, that's better for the kids. But what would happen is those grandparents or other family members would continue to enable the person who was using.
Liesel Darby [00:14:29]:
They would rescue, they would pay bills, they would, you know, they would bend rules. And what was happening was the addict was not having to do the program and make the changes that they needed to make in order to get their child back. And it really would sabotage the whole thing. So we would say like, put them in foster care, let them be with somebody else that's not a family member if this is what it's going to be. And oh my God, the backlash from that. And I understand that. I understand that. But when you're dealing with addiction, you really are dealing with life and death situations where this is no joke.
Liesel Darby [00:15:05]:
Right. And if you need to keep children safe, it might need to be in a system that is designed to keep them safe, that has these, these checks that, okay, the, this, the addict has to drug test. They have to show these behaviors, they have to go to treatment, they have to—
Leah Hadley [00:15:20]:
And Liesel, I'm gonna just stop you for one second because I do want to, for anybody who's listening who may be negotiating a divorce settlement with somebody who struggles with addiction right now, to recognize that there are some things that you can include in your parenting plan in order to make sure you're protecting your children and that you will wanna consult with your attorney around specifically legally what is available in your area in order to make sure that that language gets into the agreement. But it is really important to think about about how can we keep our kids safe? Yes, knowing that an addiction may be at hand here.
Liesel Darby [00:15:54]:
Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up. I was going to get to that, but yeah, let's talk about it here. So there are things, um, first of all, document. You are going to have to document, document, document. Um, you know, if, if your, your person has had run-ins with the law, if they have DUIs, if they've had jail time, if they've had charges, you know, for drug dealing or whatever, you know, or if you, if you see that all this money is missing, you need to document this so that you can bolster your case. Because unfortunately, I've seen this happen in the courts. Judges will— they like to let parents fail rather than take your word for it that all this stuff goes on. Okay, so you can bring that to their attention, but— and I've seen this even when it was like, how, you know, obviously there's a, there is a big problem here, um, but the judges will still do 50/50 co-parenting, um, and giving, giving that parent a chance to fail rather than put preventive measures in place or give you full custody or whatever.
Liesel Darby [00:17:06]:
Even in cases where it's like, this is pretty blatant here, this is pretty obvious, they will still do that. So I just I just want you to know that. So this is why you have to document things. In the meantime, you can still put some guardrails up for safety. One of those might be getting a GAL, a guardian ad litem, involved to represent your children's best interests. Maybe you go for supervised parenting time. You know, I've seen them do that, especially if they're going through treatment programs whatever, they can still see their child. They won't block— they're not going to block that, but they recognize that somebody's got a— a responsible person needs to be there, right? So that's, that's something that you can definitely look into.
Liesel Darby [00:17:52]:
And I also know that there are, like, if alcohol is the main culprit here, there are, there are programs you can get a breathalyzer thing hooked up to their steering wheel that they have to blow into before they get in the car. It won't start. Unless they are, you know, clean. And then you might even be able to get random drug testing written into it, depending. But you have to have that conversation with your attorney and let them go the legal routes on those. Okay, the other thing you can do, because they're unreliable— that's another thing you're going to deal with if you're dealing with an addict, is they're not reliable. They don't keep their word. So a lot of times if you have parenting plan or parenting time set up and you're all ready, the kids are ready to go see their dad or their mom, and then they know they don't show up.
Liesel Darby [00:18:46]:
And now you have a crushed kid and you're having to explain, make up something like, oh, you know, they couldn't make it today. So, you know, kids notice that, you know, when dad doesn't show up, 5 weeks in a row, they notice that, or they're late bringing them back, or, you know, it's just they're not reliable. So that's something that you have to— you might be contending with.
Leah Hadley [00:19:14]:
And so the other thing I will say that I see come up quite a bit in cases when there are children involved is sometimes the home in which the person dealing with addiction may not be supplied sufficiently to provide that kind of parenting support. And I'm curious from your perspective, 'cause I think, Liesl, it's a challenge, right? And I saw the struggle with my own mother, right? Like, you want your child to have a relationship with this person, but this person might not be in the headspace or really capable at this point in their life to be able to manage a parenting role, right? Right. And so how do you kind of deal with that, that conflict of like wanting that person to have that relationship, but also knowing that like you want to keep your child safe?
Liesel Darby [00:20:07]:
Safety first. Okay. So, so that's, that's the main thing. And I, you know, there's a line, there's a fine line here, and I don't know that there's like a great answer to this. I was going to say parallel parenting is what probably needs to happen when you're dealing with somebody like this, but it also means that you don't get a say in what's going on in the other person's home, which is actually true for either— whenever, however you're doing your parenting, you don't get to go in and critique things or say, well, I would do it this way, you're not doing it right. None of that is helpful anyway. And it's especially— you're going to be falling on deaf ears if you're dealing with an addict. So I don't know.
Leah Hadley [00:20:59]:
Let's also talk a little bit about— and I know we're going to come up on time here, and this is just a topic that we could literally talk about for hours. There's so much here. But we work with a lot of women who they've raised their kids, maybe they're enjoying time with their grandkids. But their spouse may have started drinking more or gambling or doing some other things that are making them feel very financially unstable. You know, we've had women come into the office where they found their spouse passed out in the driveway, right? That they drove themselves home from the bar and they're passed out in the driveway. Like, we've heard it all. You know, doing this long enough, we've heard it all right at this point.
Liesel Darby [00:21:39]:
That shouldn't fit any case.
Leah Hadley [00:21:42]:
No, unfortunately. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts for, you know, for women who are in that situation. They, you know, have raised a family with this individual. There's a lot of other challenges that are completely unrelated to parenting that come up when somebody decides to split from somebody dealing with addiction. Can you talk a little bit more about some of those struggles and, and what we see with some of our clients?
Liesel Darby [00:22:08]:
Yeah. Um, so are you talking about like the feelings that come up, or more practical?
Leah Hadley [00:22:13]:
Well, feelings, but also even just protecting themselves and going through the divorce process. And yes. Some of the conflict. You know, we were talking just a minute ago about parent— that's what made me think of it. We're talking about parallel parenting and why that may be a solution that works better for your family. Yeah, well, parallel parenting typically works better for families that struggle with conflict, right? That they just literally cannot be in communication talking through the parenting challenges.
Liesel Darby [00:22:38]:
This falls into that category.
Leah Hadley [00:22:40]:
Exactly, exactly.
Liesel Darby [00:22:41]:
Yes, yes, yes. So, so parallel parenting, for those of you who are not familiar with this concept, is instead of trying to work with the other parent and cooperate and all these wonderful things that we wish everybody could do, there are just some people that that's not healthy. It's not gonna work. They're not gonna engage in anything that's productive. So parallel parenting is where you make all your own decisions. You don't have to consult with them. You don't have to run everything by them. You do you.
Liesel Darby [00:23:13]:
And they're going to do them. Okay, so I think when the less interaction you have with that person, the less conflict, right? So here's where like a parenting app like OurFamilyWizard really comes in handy, you know, where it's everything is written down. And this also helps with documentation too, um, and the judge, the courts can see what's going on. Okay, so I'm all for OurFamilyWizard or any of the other parenting apps that are out there. As well. I'm just most familiar with this one. Um, but you, the— you want to try to stay out of the drama at all costs, right? So the less you have to talk to this person, the less you have to ask them about decisions you're making, the better for everybody. So there's that.
Liesel Darby [00:24:05]:
And then the other thing you're going to have to do is set some boundaries. Maybe even around like exchanges, or if you're, you know, both of you are at your child's school activities or sports or something, set some boundaries about how interactions are going to go. You know, it might be, you know, we're just going to hug and kiss our kid goodbye, say go see your other parent. That's it. You know, and I know a lot of times that Parents in that situation will want to take that opportunity to start screaming at you or yelling or, you know, trying to engage you in whatever it is that they're upset about at the time. And your job is to just stay out of it. Just, just don't do it. If you have to be at a school function or an athletic event or something, maybe there's boundaries in place, like, you know, there's not going to be any hug, hello, or goodbye.
Liesel Darby [00:25:00]:
You're not going to Again, don't engage as much as possible. I mean, you can say hi, you know, no need to be, you know, not telling you to be Miss Frosty or anything like that, but don't engage, okay? It's just better all the way around. This person has to get their life in order because they are chaotic and they want to pull you into it because that's the pattern that's been established. And your job is to break that pattern and just stay out of it as much as you can.
Leah Hadley [00:25:27]:
And I think that's particularly difficult for some of the women that we work with who've been in marriages for 20, 30, 40 years. I know these patterns are very well established, right? These are patterns that, like, you know, it's going to take some work to get out of some of the patterns that we're seeing. But I know some of the women who come in and meet with me, they are financially very fearful, not necessarily, you know, for their own safety. You know, they may not be in you know, an abusive situation in any way, except that their spouse is struggling with this issue of addiction. And at the end of the day, making sure that you feel confident that you have a roof over your head and that you have food on the table, those basic things, right?
Liesel Darby [00:26:10]:
Right.
Leah Hadley [00:26:10]:
A lot of times when people are struggling with addiction and they are blowing through money faster than anticipated, that feeling that you have that you're fearful around your safety, it is a real safety concern. It's not like you're not necessarily afraid this person is going to hit you, or that you're gonna get in the car with them while they're drunk, but that your very stability, your very infrastructure of your life can be at risk. So I just wanna acknowledge any of you who might be in that space of struggling, like I've loved this person for decades, but I'm also still very fearful. I want you to know that comes from a very real place and that we have seen, we really have seen so many different things in our practice. And so for a lot of people, that financial fear, it's very well-founded. And so if you're feeling that and you're hearing this, I just want you to know it doesn't necessarily mean divorce, right? It could mean maybe that person's gonna get some support. Maybe there's something that you can do there. But one of the other big challenges, we talked about the betrayal with sex addiction, but it comes up with other things too, is that addiction really destroys trust, right?
Liesel Darby [00:27:20]:
Yes.
Leah Hadley [00:27:20]:
And so whether you are continuing to stay married to this person, you're going through a divorce, or maybe you're trying to parent or grandparent with this person, you still want to have some level because you're interacting with them on an ongoing basis.
Liesel Darby [00:27:35]:
How do you get that trust back, Liesel? It's so hard. If you've been gaslit, you know, for one thing, or like you say, you know, your very foundation. I always think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah, right. If your very foundation is being threatened, nothing else matters, right? If you're afraid of being homeless or no food on the table or any of that, you know, that's the foundation, and then safety even. So yeah, you got to have that, got to have that. Um, so here's, here's what I would do is you can just start— let's, let's talk about like gaslighting. And stuff and things like that, more, more mental kind of things.
Liesel Darby [00:28:17]:
If you, if you feel like you can't trust this person or anybody else because of this stuff, you're going to have to start teaching yourself to look for evidence that supports either what they're saying or what you're— or what you know to be true from your end of it. Look for the evidence, um, because just because somebody— if you've always had somebody who's been gaslighting you or blaming you for everything, it's all— everything is your fault You got to start hitting back, not maybe out loud, but inside. You have to start thinking, is that true?
Leah Hadley [00:28:51]:
Yeah.
Liesel Darby [00:28:51]:
And what would make that true? Or what supports that it's not true? Okay. You're going to have to teach yourself to start questioning it and approach it from where's the evidence? What's the evidence for? Other thing I want you to do is start documenting everything again, okay? Whether that's journaling or just keeping a list, but whenever you have a situation or some kind of contact or something, document it so that you have a record of this. This is the time, this is the date, this is what was said, this is what was done, this is the agreement or whatever, the outcome, whatever. Keep a written log of that because that will help you if down the road somebody tries to tell you that never happened, or again, you're crazy, or this is your fault, you can go back and read it and say, no, no, I wrote this down in real time or shortly thereafter, and this is what happened. In case you start to doubt yourself again, I think it's just really, you have to learn how to trust yourself again, trust yourself again, that, you know, yeah, I know what I saw, I know what I heard, I know what I said. I know what you said. I know what happened. And then you're going to have to start to rebuild that.
Liesel Darby [00:30:07]:
It's going to take a while, but you can do it, you know. And then the other thing, please get some support because like, like Leah, like you said, this is common. Unfortunately, this is common no matter if it's gambling or sex addiction or alcohol or drug use or whatever it is. It is common. Because that's how people are coping with, you know, whatever's going on inside them because they don't know how, or it started a long time ago. And, you know, it just—
Leah Hadley [00:30:40]:
so, you know, I think that's a really important point, Liesel, is that, you know, this is a difficult situation for anybody, right? Like, regardless. But then when you add divorce into the mix and this person can become very, very triggered by the fact that there is all this additional upheaval in their lives, Mm-hmm. Yeah. What do you recommend, Lisa? Because I, you know, boy, we've seen some ugly stuff. Like, what do you recommend?
Liesel Darby [00:31:07]:
Again, get some help, get some support. I, I can't stress that enough.
Leah Hadley [00:31:12]:
And I want to just— I, I just— I'll stop you for a second, one second, because sometimes when you say like get help, it's very easy for people to feel like, oh, I have to go see a therapist. Like, that's the best, right? And that's right.
Liesel Darby [00:31:21]:
There's—
Leah Hadley [00:31:22]:
for people who have loved ones with addiction, there are lots of resources out there.
Liesel Darby [00:31:27]:
Talk a little bit about those, Liesel. So, you know, you've all heard of Al-Anon. Okay, so you've heard of AA, so that's for the actual addicts to go, right? Al-Anon is for the family members or friends, anybody who is dealing with this person. Um, and the thing you're going to find out right away is you are not alone. And you know, my favorite thing to talk about anybody going through divorce is you are not alone. But you are definitely not alone in dealing with this kind of thing. And so you're just— you're gonna find a group of, of people who are going through very similar things that you are, and you're going to talk about it and you're going to share your ideas on how you're coping with this and the struggles that other people are having. And it's such a lovely thing just to have that support and to know we're in there.
Liesel Darby [00:32:11]:
I'm not the only person who's ever had to deal with this kind of thing, and this is how other people have tried to handle it. This is what worked. This is what didn't so much. But it makes— it lets you know that you're, you're not crazy.
Leah Hadley [00:32:23]:
Right, you are not. You know, it's so important. I remember when I first started to learn, and I was probably in my— it was probably after my dad passed away, now that I think about it, was probably in my late 20s, and I started to learn about some of the commonalities of, uh, daughters of addicts, right? That I didn't know that there were all these commonalities. But what an eye-opening experience for me when I started reading about this, because suddenly I started to see myself in these different things, right? And where was I playing into the behavior and not doing something that was in my best interest, right? Um, and where I wasn't. And it's so powerful to have that experience. So I think Al-Anon is just a wonderful organization. I've had so many people over the years share really positive experiences with me.
Liesel Darby [00:33:08]:
And you'll learn about addiction and what that disease entails and, and common behaviors that are, you know, codependency is. So then you can start to self-reflect and say, oh, well, this is how I'm feeding into it. Or this is how I can do something different. That's even better. Now this is something I can do differently, because you just can't say stop doing this. That never works. You have to have a behavior that you're going to substitute into that place, and then you're going to have to practice and practice and practice and practice. This is not easy.
Liesel Darby [00:33:39]:
Anybody going through this, this is not easy, but, but you can do it. People do it. So there's Al-Anon, there's Nar-Anon if you're dealing with narcotics, there's Gamble-Anon for gamblers, and then there's Al-Anon for if you're dealing with a sex addict. Now, you very well—
Leah Hadley [00:33:53]:
I didn't know about Al-Anon. That's wonderful.
Liesel Darby [00:33:56]:
Yeah. Now here's the thing, you might be doing cross, cross things, um, because a lot of times sex addicts are also addicted to other substances. Gamblers might be.
Leah Hadley [00:34:05]:
Well, I also encourage people to find what's right for you. Like I did, I did date a gentleman who was in recovery. This was before I even got married the first time, um, and I had gone to a couple of meetings with him just to be I'm in support of. And what I found was that the meetings had very different personalities.
Liesel Darby [00:34:20]:
Oh yes.
Leah Hadley [00:34:23]:
Yeah. Uh, exactly. Yeah, that's right. It's, it's, it's not a one size fits all. It's find something that's going to be supportive. But what I also love about divorce coaching in particular, Lisa, is you're able to address the very specific thing that they're dealing with in that moment. So I think these support groups are amazing for long-term ongoing, but if you need like a targeted, like I need help in this moment, I'm in the middle of a divorce. I'm struggling with this.
Leah Hadley [00:34:48]:
Like, honestly, I just think divorce coaching is so powerful in that specific situation.
Liesel Darby [00:34:54]:
Yeah. And, you know, I, I— like you pointed out, I have the added benefit of I, I know about addictions too, right? Yeah. So I'm a certified divorce coach. I've got that going for me. I was a, you know, a therapist in a previous life, the mental, mental health for kids and families, and then the, the addiction piece of that too. Um, I'm kind of uniquely situated to be like a really big help to whoever. For sure.
Leah Hadley [00:35:17]:
No, really, that's why I was I'm excited to have this conversation, Liesel. Like, we— Liesel and I talked about this a few weeks ago. She wrote a phenomenal blog post that's up on our site now. We'll include a link in the show notes. But I just was talking to Lisa and I was like, this is coming up in so many cases. And in all honesty, like, yes, drug and alcohol addiction, absolutely, they come up in cases. But with my financial expertise, you know, the gambling and the sex addiction just come up even more as it relates to, you know, marital waste claims and things like that that, you know, sometimes attorneys need. Support with your financial analysis around.
Leah Hadley [00:35:51]:
But I'm just like, not enough people are talking about this because there are very specific, unique challenges that people are dealing with. And I'm just so glad, Liesl, that we have you as a resource and we can have this conversation.
Liesel Darby [00:36:02]:
Yeah, it's so important. And again, let's shine a light on it. You know, this is a judgment-free zone. That's right. You're going to get a ton of empathy from me. I'm in your corner. Uh, but I'm also going to help you navigate how to do this, um, for, for you and your kids, you know. But there's— you, you don't have to do this alone, and it's really hard to do this alone.
Liesel Darby [00:36:25]:
It's just, it's really— I mean, I always say divorce, you're in the thick of the ick anyway, right? Now you pour extra ick on it that's been there for a long time and is fermented and it's goopy and it's solidified. And no, you need help. You can't blast your way out of this. On your own, and you're going to struggle more than you need to if you're floundering around trying to find which way is up. I mean, I can at least help you. I, I can help you with that, and I can help pull you out of that, and I can help shine a light on all of it. And then together we can figure out some strategies that are actually going to make a difference.
Leah Hadley [00:37:02]:
Yeah.
Liesel Darby [00:37:02]:
Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:37:03]:
Liesl, thank you so much for joining me today, for having this conversation. I have a feeling there are some topics that we touched on very briefly that we may want to dig in a little deeper on. So there may be some additional more episodes coming your way.
Liesel Darby [00:37:16]:
It's fine. I'm always happy to do this, you know.
Leah Hadley [00:37:20]:
All right, fantastic. And for our listeners, thank you so much for being with us, and we will see you next week.
Liesel Darby [00:37:26]:
Bye-bye.
Leah Hadley [00:37:26]:
Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision-making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
