Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce finance and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention.
Leah Hadley [00:00:24]:
Hi there, and welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm so happy that you're here with us today. If you are here, you are in the right, right place. We have such an accomplished guest with us today, Karen. She, she'll tell you she's a recovering lawyer, but she is a divorce coach, she's a mediator, she is an author, she is a speaker, she is a podcaster. And Karen just puts out so much wonderful content online for those of you who are researching your options and what to consider. So she is just a wealth of knowledge. And I just so appreciate you taking the time to be here with us today, Karen.
Karen Covy [00:01:03]:
Thank you. I am so thrilled to be here. I really am.
Leah Hadley [00:01:06]:
So tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into the work that you're doing.
Karen Covy [00:01:11]:
Okay. Well, I've been a divorce lawyer for longer than I care to admit to. And one day I was in my office and it was hot. I had a client in my office. The door was open. My secretary was outside the door. She heard the conversation. The client gets up and leaves.
Karen Covy [00:01:30]:
It was a small office, and she says to me, you know, nobody else does that. Now, my secretary had worked for all of the big guns in Chicago, right? She worked for some of the big divorce lawyers and blah, blah, blah, anyways. And I said, what do you mean nobody else does that? And she said, you just sat down and told this person, here's what your options are. Here's how this works. Here's what you have to decide. And, you know, you can do this, this, this, or this. And now you choose.
Karen Covy [00:01:57]:
And I said, well, if the other lawyers aren't doing that, what are they doing? And she said, here's a contract. Sign here. And I said, I don't think I get to make that choice. It's not my life. And she said, well, I'm just telling you, that's what they do. And so that sort of led me on this journey to find out how I could educate the people going into divorce so that they could do better. Because I knew as one person, I'm never going to change the whole system across the country, but I can change it for my clients.
Karen Covy [00:02:30]:
And so that became the trajectory that changed my career trajectory entirely because I thought I could do both. But they said to us in law school, on day one, the law is a jealous mistress. It really is, because I can have an entire day planned tomorrow of coaching clients, and then at 5 o', clock, I get a notice of emergency motion, and there goes my day. So I had to make a choice, and I chose coaching because I think it's where I can have the biggest impact.
Leah Hadley [00:03:06]:
I love that on so many levels, I do. I mean, I see the impact that you're making, and you say one person at a time, but I know with the content that you're putting out there that you're able to impact a whole lot more than one person at a time, which is fabulous. Today we're talking all about decision making and decision making through the divorce process. You know, from the time that you make that initial decision to move forward with the termination of the marriage, to deciding, you know, through the negotiations about what you're going to keep, what you're going to let go to this next phase of life and what that looks like to you. So there are so many decisions that are made along the way that people don't even necessarily think about with intentionality. And so I really want to dive into this with you and talk about all of these decisions. And how do you go about making these decisions in a space when you are feeling so emotionally overwhelmed, you're getting all this input, whether you're researching online or you're talking to your friend or your neighbor or what have you. Like, where do we even start?
Karen Covy [00:04:09]:
Karen, you start with what you said, which is intentionality, right? And the problem with the divorce decisions is they come at you fast and furious from a million different angles at a time when you don't even understand you're going to have to make them. And when you have to make a decision in the spur of the moment, that's when you make bad ones because you haven't had time to think about, what does this mean? What are the implications? What do I really want? So it starts with, hopefully in the beginning of your divorce, but if not in the beginning, wherever you are right now, it's never too late. And just to look at the big picture and say, where do I want to be when I end up? Because if you don't know what you're shooting at, you're not going to hit the target, right? So you start by saying, this is what matters to me. These are my values. This is what I care about. This is what I don't care about. This is what I sort of kind of care about. But I could, you know, I could take it or leave it.
Karen Covy [00:05:08]:
And you start. And I take my clients through a series of exercises to help them identify what is it that you really want? And you do that. Those exercises, when you're quiet, when you have a moment, when you're not in the middle of a courtroom or a trial or have a lawyer or judge breathing down your neck, saying, what do you want? What do you want? What do you want? That is not the time to make a decision.
Leah Hadley [00:05:33]:
That's such a good point. And I can't tell you how many people I've talked to over the years who have gone to a settlement conference and come back and been like, I didn't realize I was going to even be asked this, that, or the other. Right. And so it's a really important point that a lot of times you don't even know that you're going to be put in that position. And so being able to take that step back is huge.
Karen Covy [00:05:55]:
So you start by doing that. You start by identifying, what's the goal? Where do I want to be when I end this? Because nobody wants their divorce to be the defining moment of their life forever, right? So it's, where do I want to be? And then you work backwards and say, how do I get there? Right. And when you know what your ultimate goal is, then as these smaller decisions come at you, even if there is one that you weren't expecting, you just use that ultimate goal as your benchmark, and you say, okay, if I decide this smaller thing this way, does it get me closer to my goal or farther away? And if the answer's farther away, then you don't make that decision that way.
Leah Hadley [00:06:43]:
So I want to highlight something that you said there, that nobody wants their divorce to be this highlight of their life. Right. Nobody wants it to be this defining moment of their life. However, so often people make the assumption that it will be this defining moment in their life. Right. And so, you know, certainly a lot of change happens through the divorce process, and a lot of, you know, life choices get made during that process, but it doesn't have to derail everything that you're looking forward to in your life. Right. And I think sometimes people get so stuck in the mindset of that this.
Leah Hadley [00:07:17]:
This pivotal moment is going to be the thing that sort of stops me from what I want. Right.
Karen Covy [00:07:24]:
And that you're 100% right. It's about mindset, and it doesn't have to be that way. I have helped so many clients over the years. I can't even begin to count the number over the decades that I've been working in divorce that look back after they're on the other side. It's like, yeah, that kind of sucked. But you know, look I'm doing now. Right. You can get to that place.
Karen Covy [00:07:47]:
It's 100% possible. But you and I both know, the people who, it's been 20 years and they're still spitting mad at their spouse, so much so that they can't sit next to their spouse or, or even in the same room with their spouse when the kids are getting married or the babies are being born and they're going to parties and that's sad. What a horrible way to live your life.
Leah Hadley [00:08:13]:
And so unnecessary. So unnecessary. So the first decision that kind of has to be made through the process, somebody's going to make the decision whether or not to move forward with a divorce or not, right?
Karen Covy [00:08:26]:
Yep.
Leah Hadley [00:08:27]:
I'm curious, just, I know you work with people around that decision. Specifically what does that process look like when you're working with somebody when they're in that space?
Karen Covy [00:08:37]:
Great question. I mean, there are two aspects of it. There's head and heart, and if you don't have both, and actually the third one is kind of the gut, which is the same, it's usually aligned with the heart. But if you don't have all of those elements, you are not going to make a decision that you feel confident in and nobody wants that. The worst thing you could do is to make a decision that you regret or that you second guess yourself. What if I would have done this? You can make yourself a complete crazy person by doing that. Right.
Karen Covy [00:09:10]:
So I have been studying the science of decision making for years and years and years and years. And there is a science to it and a lot of it has to do with your head. There are frameworks for decision making that will, if you use them, it will help you make a more well reasoned decision. And those frameworks are important. I mean, everybody knows there's the list of pros and cons. Now the problem with that particular framework is it doesn't work. But you know, that's neither here nor there.
Karen Covy [00:09:43]:
So you need one that does work. So you can go through a process and ask yourself questions that will enable you to say intellectually, you know, financially, looking at this logically, reasonably, is this going to be a sound decision? Yes or no? But that's only part of the problem. If you stop there, you're still going to have those regrets. You're still going to have a little monkey in your head going, oh, you shouldn't of done that. You know you're making a mistake, and that's what drives you crazy.
Karen Covy [00:10:11]:
So, then it's about getting quiet and doing a different set of exercises that are designed to put you in touch with who you really are, to listen to your heart, to listen to your gut and figure out, okay, I know intellectually this is good or bad, but emotionally, psychologically, do I feel that way? And then in a perfect world, you marry the two of those or the three of those aspects of yourself together, and that's when you get the decision that, mind you, you might not like it. I mean, nobody who wants to go through a divorce. Right. You may know this is gonna suck, and it is, but you also know it's the right thing to do. That's where you want to be.
Leah Hadley [00:11:01]:
Yeah, that's really powerful to be in that level of alignment when you're making that decision, because so often once that decision is made, it's easy to second guess yourself. Of course, once you communicate it to your spouse, there might be a lot of, you know, sort of negotiation of what that looks like. You know, as people are kind of going through that grieving process and all of that. You know, there's a lot of people that are gonna have something to say about this. But when you're really in alignment with that decision, I mean, I love that visual that you provided because it really. It grounds you in it. Right. So that way, when all of these other voices are kind of coming at you, you can still feel really solid in that decision.
Karen Covy [00:11:42]:
Yeah. Because trust me, everybody is going to have an opinion about your divorce and your life, and that's okay. Like, they're allowed to have an opinion, but they don't get a vote. Right. It's your life, and you're the one that has to live with the consequences of whatever your decision is. And your decision may be, hey, this isn't the right time, or guess what? I can still work on this marriage. I think that maybe there's something there we can save. We're going to try that first.
Karen Covy [00:12:10]:
And if that's your decision, awesome, 100%. If there's a way to save your marriage, do that, because it's a whole lot less grief and aggravation not to mention expense. But sometimes when you know in your heart that that's never going to work. To stay in a dead marriage is soul sucking. And people always think about, I don't want to decide to divorce and regret that I didn't stay. But what they don't look at is the other side of the coin. If I stay married and now I'm on my deathbed or I've lived out my life and
Karen Covy [00:12:52]:
I never lived my dreams. I never got to be who I wanted to be. I was always stuck in a marriage that wasn't healthy for me or my kids. That's a regret. True regret, too. And I think that's the more powerful one.
Leah Hadley [00:13:10]:
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and just thinking about and talking with people and witnessing, I have to agree with that wholeheartedly. And I know that, you know, there's this huge wave of gray divorce that we're seeing where people have decided to stay in marriages that were not necessarily, you know, right for them for many, many years. And then later in life, making the decision that now's the time. And I think that there's a lot that goes into that decision, no matter where you are, of course. But I think one of the hardest things that I hear from people who are divorcing later in life is you've made it this long. Right.
Leah Hadley [00:13:50]:
Why can't you just, you know, stick it out or whatever?
Karen Covy [00:13:54]:
Divorcing later in life, it's, you know, I don't know. I just got this visual did you ever see the movie or the play Fiddler on the Roof?
Leah Hadley [00:14:06]:
Of course. Yeah.
Karen Covy [00:14:07]:
Right. And so the oldest daughter, Seidel, is trying to get married, and she wants to marry this poor tailor. And the tailor is talking to Tavia, and Tavia's like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And the tailor has this beautiful line, and he says, even a poor tailor is entitled to some happiness.
Leah Hadley [00:14:28]:
That's right.
Karen Covy [00:14:29]:
And Tabby is like, what do you say to that? Right? It's the same thing with gray divorce. Every person, in my humble opinion, is entitled to some happiness. And because I'm at a certain stage in life, I can tell you that when you're looking at the prospect of having less in front of you than you do in back of you and not knowing how much more in front of you is, you look at life differently and you say, you know what? Yeah, I've stuck it out this long, but I'm entitled to some happiness. And so I think that's a lot of the psychology that's behind the gray divorce revolution.
Leah Hadley [00:15:09]:
That makes a lot of sense now. I know a lot of people really struggle with communicating that decision with their adult children and helping their adult children to understand the decision. And I love that you just said, you know, people can have an opinion, but they can't have a vote. That does include your adult children, right? Yes, but how do you coach people who are dealing with that particular challenge?
Karen Covy [00:15:35]:
Well, first of all, you're 100% right. They are going to have an opinion. So it's about keeping the lines of communication open and trying to, even though they're adults, trying to present the information to them in the healthiest way possible so you don't over share. Like, for instance, sometimes in a marriage, one person has been stepping outside the marriage for a long time and the other person just gets tired of it. You don't necessarily have to tell your kids, oh, yeah, your father or your mother has been cheating on me for decades. That's going to hurt them no matter how old they are. You don't need to air all the dirty laundry from the marriage.
Karen Covy [00:16:17]:
You don't have to throw your partner under the bus. But you do have to say to them, look, I'll answer your questions. I'm just not happy. There's some things in my private life, and I'm not going to tell you and try to do this as amicably as possible and communicate to them that you care about them, you love them, you're there for them, but this isn't about them. It's about you and your spouse, and they don't get a vote. And you have to be ready as a parent, which is so hard. You have to be ready for the fact that they might not talk to you for a while, they might not like it. And it's at that point that when you are aligned in your decision and you know it's the right thing, that's when you can say to them, with all the love in the world, you know, I know this is hard for you.
Karen Covy [00:17:13]:
I'm really sorry, but this is a decision, not a discussion.
Leah Hadley [00:17:20]:
I love that. I mean, that was, that was like a mic drop. And I so appreciate you normalizing the fact that they may not speak to you and they may create some additional space. I do witness a lot of clients experiencing that and really struggling with that. And the other thing that I do see people struggling with, which you really nailed, is that, you know, when people talk to their younger children about going through a divorce, I think most people do a pretty good job of boundaries around how much they're going to communicate about that divorce and kind of what happened, what led to it, what have you. But when it comes to adult children, I see people disclosing a tremendous amount of information that creates oftentimes that friction, you know, that they're trying to avoid. And so I think you really hit the nail on the head with that.
Karen Covy [00:18:17]:
Yeah. I mean, no matter what your children are your children, you are their parent. You're not their best friend. And I know that it's very trendy today that, you know, parents are really good friends with their children, especially as they get older. And there's nothing wrong with that, except you still got to realize, fundamentally, you will always be their parent. And you have a responsibility as a parent to be careful with what you share and to not use your child even though they're an adult, as your therapist, as your emotional support system, as, you know, the dumping ground for all the horrible things that you're feeling and going through. Because, you know, another thing that people need to realize is just because you're the one who made the decision to divorce, that doesn't mean it was easy. And that doesn't mean that you're not going to be sad and have all of the same emotional reaction to it as the person, you know, who was told, yeah, I want, you know, a divorce.
Leah Hadley [00:19:18]:
Yeah, absolutely. Now, Karen, in the past, I've heard you talk about being the CEO of your own divorce. What does that mean? How could you be the CEO of your own divorce?
Karen Covy [00:19:28]:
Look, I tell my clients, nobody, not your lawyer, not your kids, not your anybody is going to care more about your divorce than you do. So it is not your lawyer's responsibility to make sure it goes well. It is yours. And you need more than a lawyer to do that. I mean, when I was actively practicing law, people would come to me going through a divorce, and it's like they hand you their life and say, here, fix it. Make it. Make this divorce over. Make it all good.
Karen Covy [00:19:56]:
And the lawyer only deals with the legal part of a divorce, which for most people is about 10%, maybe a little bit more, depending on how tricky your, you know, your issues are. But for most people, that's it. So the lawyer is not going to tell you what days it's best for you to have your kids, whether or not, you know, the amount of money that you're going to get in this settlement or that settlement is really going to be enough to meet your needs. Where are you going to live? How do you communicate hard decisions to. To your spouse and your children and everybody else? There's so much that your lawyer is not going to do. And so that falls on you. And understanding that if you try to dump it on your lawyer, your lawyer may say, okay, fine, whatever. But they're going to do whatever they're going to do.
Karen Covy [00:20:40]:
You don't have control over that. So if you care about your life and you want to be in that good position once all of this is over with, you're the one that has to say, okay, I need a lawyer. Maybe I need a realtor because we're going to sell the house. Maybe I need a mortgage professional because we're going to have to refinance. Maybe I need a financial advisor to say, okay, this is what, you know, the money divisions could look like. Maybe I'm going to need a coach to help me put all these pieces together because my head is spinning and I can't figure all this out by myself. So it's about putting together the team. And as a coach, one of the things that I do for my clients is empower them to be the CEO, because guess what? This is a really emotional time.
Karen Covy [00:21:26]:
There are going to be periods of time when you can't think straight. You just. You can't do it. And so until you get your motion, your emotions in check, and then, you know, then you start saying, okay, what do I need? And as a coach, I can tell you, you need this, you don't need that. No, that's unnecessary. Yeah, this is really important. And help you make your own strategy for the whole picture, not just the legal part.
Leah Hadley [00:21:53]:
Yes. I mean, that's so important. And, you know, I think a lot of people, when they hear about getting all these different professionals involved in the divorce process, they're already terrified about spending money on the divorce. And now, Karen, you're talking about bringing in all these other folks. What would you say to them?
Karen Covy [00:22:13]:
If you know how to use the right professional for the right job, you save money. For example, there are a lot of ways you can use your lawyer that will jack up the bill, like, instantaneously. But I am a lawyer. I know what those ways are, and I can tell you how to avoid that. People who work with me are going to save money in legal fees, assuming that they follow what I say. Some people want to. Don't want to do that. And that's fine too.
Karen Covy [00:22:39]:
But it's about knowing how to use each professional. And guess what? You, some of the professionals you use are going to be free, or some of them, you can use them in a limited capacity. So you're not getting the Cadillac of services full of stuff you don't need. You're just buying what you need. And if all you need is transportation to get from point A to point B, it doesn't matter whether you're in a Cadillac or a Volkswagen, they're both going to get you there as long as they work. Right. But sometimes you do need the Cadillac. Okay, well, well, use it when you need it and when you don't, you know, here's what else you can do.
Karen Covy [00:23:16]:
So even though it sounds like, oh my gosh, this is going to cost me so much money, it will actually cost you less if you take control and you put together the right team of professionals to guide you for what you need.
Leah Hadley [00:23:31]:
Absolutely. I could not agree more. And you know, I think that people have unrealistic expectations of their attorneys. And I, that's one of the things that I really appreciate about people like you, Karen, who have, you know, have the legal background but have chosen to go into the culture coaching realm because it really, you really do have that in depth knowledge of how can I best use the attorney for the legal piece and then how do I use these other resources that are really going to help me to restructure how I'm living my life. Right. So that lawyer, we have to get things filed, of course, but I just see people relying on their lawyers for things that they're just not trained for.
Karen Covy [00:24:13]:
Right. And the lawyer, I mean, look, if you want to call your lawyer at, you know, 8 o' clock in the morning and complain about the big fight that you had with your spouse the night before and go on and on and on, they'll listen at $900 an hour, of course they'll listen. But a therapist is way cheaper. And you know, a coach will help you put the pieces together and help you deal with your emotions in a different way than a therapist. But same thing. And a coach is much cheaper. So the idea is if you use the right professional in the right capacity, you're going to get the biggest bang for your buck.
Leah Hadley [00:24:50]:
Exactly. And I will say the other thing that people often miss from a financial professional, of course this is coming from that. A lot of times just not understanding the financial decision can cost them literally tens of thousands. I've actually seen more than $100,000 wasted in extra taxes or extra administrative expense or extra just things that they just didn't know about. Whereas if they had worked with a financial professional to make sure they fully understood the implications of their settlement, they could have avoided. Right.
Karen Covy [00:25:23]:
100%. And here's the other thing. There are divorce like for instance, a divorce lawyer who's also a CPA is going to understand taxes at a level that your regular divorce lawyer didn't. But guess most divorce lawyers aren't CPAs. They're not financial advisors and they know broad strokes. You know what, they know enough about finances to advise you as long as things are very simple and clear. But they don't have the depth of knowledge that you do. I mean, they, they're not up on all of the tax laws and the implications necessarily of what's going to happen if you move money this way.
Karen Covy [00:26:00]:
Do you divorce this year or next year? Do you. I mean, a lawyer is going to have enough financial background to know that there can be a difference in how much taxes you pay if you divorce now or at the end of 2025 versus the beginning of 2026. But they're not going to be able to crunch the numbers for you and tell you exactly, you know, what they're going to say to you if they're a good lawyer, they're going to say go to a financial professional or an accountant and figure out they know enough to issue spot. But they can't get down in the weeds with you to tell you this is going to be better for you or that's going to be better for you.
Leah Hadley [00:26:38]:
And I have to tell you this, this isn't common for me, but in the last month I received three urgent phone calls. Different people, different areas of the country who were in a position where they felt like within the next week they were going to have to sign something and they were at the 11th hour trying to get financial advice and. Right. I see the expression on your face. So I know, I know you know where I'm going with this. So I think the sooner that you can get these folks in your corner and get them involved in your case, you just don't end up in a situation like that. Right. Like that entire the stress of that.
Leah Hadley [00:27:16]:
But these people, when they call, I mean, my heart goes out to them, but quite frankly, there's not much that I can do at that point. And so it's just, I, I feel bad, but that whole thing can be avoided. Right.
Karen Covy [00:27:28]:
Right. And here's the thing you've got to look at divorce from a psychological perspective as well, or at least I think you do, because if you've made a settlement and you said, even just verbally, yeah, I will agree to X, whatever X is. Now the lawyers are writing it up now they're. Now the person is having buyer's remorse. They're looking at the document. They're going, oh, I don't know if X is really the best thing for me. Oh, my gosh, I need a financial professional. I need to run these numbers.
Karen Covy [00:27:53]:
What do I. Well, guess what? Number one, getting somebody at the last minute is not always easy, not always possible. And if you do, they're going to charge you more.
Leah Hadley [00:28:03]:
Yeah.
Karen Covy [00:28:03]:
And so your whole reason for not using them is, like, gone, because they're going to charge you more. Number two, even if there is something that they see and they say, okay, that's a bad idea, don't do this part of the deal or do it differently. Now, when you go back to your spouse or through the lawyers and you say, I don't want to do this anymore, I want to do something different, what they're hearing is, I'm reneging on the deal that I made. And all of a sudden you want to have a fight on your hands. That's the way to do it. Because then everybody goes crazy. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
Karen Covy [00:28:39]:
What are you doing?
Karen Covy [00:28:40]:
You're taking it back. Well, if that's the way you're going to be, then I'm going to be this. And then blah, blah, blah, and you're off to the races. You are creating the exact situation you wanted to avoid.
Leah Hadley [00:28:51]:
Such a good point, Karen. I could literally talk to you about this all day long. You are such a wealth of information and experience, and I so appreciate it, and I know that our listeners will, too. So where can they connect with you? Where can they learn more about your work?
Karen Covy [00:29:05]:
The best places. On my website, it's karencovey.com K A R E N C O-V Y.com there's no E in my version of Covy. Otherwise I'd be related to someone famous and I wouldn't have to work for a living. But karencovy.com and I'm Karen Covy on all the socials.
Leah Hadley [00:29:20]:
And Karen does have a great free download about the different divorce processes and really understanding and comparing them. So we're going to include a link to that in the show notes. But for those of you who are still kind of in that phase of figuring out kind of how you're going to go about this. I think it's really, really important for people to understand there's not just one way to do it. You have some control in that too. There's an opportunity to be intentional in that way. And deciding that process that you take is going to impact everything else that comes next. And so I love that download and I just want to encourage you to take advantage of that.
Leah Hadley [00:29:59]:
Karen, any final thoughts or comments for our listeners?
Karen Covy [00:30:02]:
Well, I will say this about the download. The best thing about it is one page. One page. Visually you can see everything you need, but what you said is 100% true. The process you choose will dramatically affect the not only the way you go through divorce, your experience of it, but where you end up at the end so you know you don't. Divorce does not have to destroy your life, but you gotta be intentional about it and do it properly if you want to end up in a good, healthy, happy whole place once it's over.
Leah Hadley [00:30:39]:
I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you so much for being with us today, Karen. I so appreciate your time and energy and I know our audience is going to get a lot out of this particular episode.
Karen Covy [00:30:49]:
Thank you, Lou, for having me.
Leah Hadley [00:30:51]:
Absolutely. And for our listeners, we will see you next week.
Leah Hadley [00:30:56]:
Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Worse. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
