Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce finance and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention. Hi there and welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I am Sarah, so happy that you are here with us today. I am really looking forward to introducing our guest today. He's going to have a unique perspective on things for us.
Leah Hadley [00:00:38]:
Sam Astra is a high conflict divorce expert dedicated to helping fathers protect their relationship with their children and avoid bleeding out money so they can create a stable, healthy future for their family. With over 10 years of experience in divorce relationships, parents and children, Sam has guided countless fathers through the complexities of separation, custody battles, and parental alienation. Sam, thank you so much for being here with us today.
Sam Asra [00:01:06]:
Thank you for having me, Leah. I really appreciate it.
Leah Hadley [00:01:08]:
Oh, it is my pleasure. And I would love to hear a little bit more about how you got into the work that you're doing.
Sam Asra [00:01:16]:
Well, it's kind of a sad but cool story. I'm actually a child of a high conflict divorce. And for me, I saw the effects that it had on children just because I was that child. Right. So I went through a lot of struggles. You know, I didn't have the parental figures in my life that I should have. And that was out of largely how, you know, how conflicting the divorce was. And it's one of the ugliest divorces you can imagine.
Sam Asra [00:01:45]:
I mean, money stolen, you know, I lost all my friends in the process. There was, you know, physical abuse, emotional abuse. In any case, you know, I gone through all that. Now I'm seeing kids also being subject to the same thing. So, you know, that inspired me to do something about it. And in this case, I'm helping fathers in particular just because that's the niche I chose. So nothing more than that.
Leah Hadley [00:02:11]:
Okay, fantastic. And you work primarily with fathers who are navigating high conflict divorces. So from your perspective, what are some of those early warning signs that a divorce is likely to become a high conflict situation?
Sam Asra [00:02:25]:
Well, refusing to agree in mediation is definitely one of those things. You know, when partners or ex spouses at that point are showing a lack of cooperation, and then it starts to get hostile, starts to saying, well, I'm gonna take, you know, every month, every penny that you got and I'm gonna take the kids away from you and I'm gonna that kind of hostile, threatening power kind of language you could probably. It's, it's very indicative of a high conflict divorce. You know, they'd rather take it to court, spend all this money just to fight. That's also indicative of a high conflict divorce. Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:03:05]:
Do you have any recommendations for, you know, if people notice some of these signs, anything that they can do to maybe de escalate the conflict before it starts to kind of spiral?
Sam Asra [00:03:17]:
Absolutely. There's, there's a ton of things and that's a lot of what we train for our fathers, but it works for, for moms. The same way is using those soft skills to de escalate the fire. We, we call it fighting fire with water and not with fire. So if you, if you come in with the same fiery attack as they come in with, you will escalate the situation. On the flip side, if you just appease, then they'll keep taking and taking and taking. And so you've got to have a, somewhere in the middle where it's like, I will budge on certain things, but then our certain things are non negotiable so that you come in as cooperative and that's going to give a likely chance of, of them starting to cooperate. Now, it doesn't always work, but we are reciprocal as human beings in nature.
Sam Asra [00:04:07]:
So if you say, you know what, I'm sorry, like let's, for the kids, let's, you know, can we do this as, as peacefully as possible? I'll budge on this. Will you budge on this? Right, fine. Right. So it's like if you can initiate that, you may have a, you may have a good response.
Leah Hadley [00:04:27]:
I think that's so important for people to take that step back and really know what their non negotiables are, where their boundaries are. Right. Because otherwise it's so easy to have an emotional response to, quite frankly, everything, right. You're feeling emotional, um, and it feels like everything can trigger you. Right.
Sam Asra [00:04:44]:
And you gotta be careful because you let that get the best of you, it's going to cost you. Don't think that you're winning just because I'm going to take you to court. It's like you're, that's you losing because all that money should have gone to yourself, to the kids, to their future, to your future in retirement. So really think about, you know, try to think about as strategically as possible. One of those things is pausing and taking a step back. Take some time to come back to your senses. You know, as human beings, when we get emotional, we stop thinking logically. So we gotta take a pause.
Sam Asra [00:05:18]:
And that can really help you.
Leah Hadley [00:05:21]:
What are you seeing as maybe some of the most common, whether it's emotions or fears that are really driving conflict in the divorce cases that you see?
Sam Asra [00:05:32]:
Well, I think some of it is different between men and women, though. I understand both because in. When I was a child, my mother was the victim, like my father was the vindictive one. He spread lies, he went and stole money. So I have a very balanced, you know, unlike most, you know, coaches who work with men, I have a balanced approach. So could you rephrase your question so I can make sure I. Yeah, just.
Leah Hadley [00:06:00]:
Wondering, what are you seeing as some of the most common fears or emotions that are really driving conflict and divorce?
Sam Asra [00:06:08]:
One of those things is fear, stability, lack of stability, depending on if you're the breadwinner or not. And then one of the other things is losing, losing your kids love, like your kids thinking you don't love them. And so when the fight ensues and then one of the spouses starts to play dirty and to say, you know, your father or your mother never cared about you and this is why they're fighting and he'd rather spend all this money than spend it on you, that affects the relationship between the other spouse. And then they get, you know, they start getting fearful and then they'll, they'll snap right back. So those are very common. The other thing is lack of control. Right. When we feel like we have a lack of control, we want to, we, we get very, very.
Sam Asra [00:07:03]:
We get scared. Right. Because you don't control things anymore. Right. The court is dictating it and now you're trying to compensate as much as possible, whether it's like, how much money is fair, how much time with the kids is fair. And so it's definitely an emotional time.
Leah Hadley [00:07:23]:
Absolutely. And even I see certainly struggles when kids are younger and parents are trying to figure out what maybe a co parenting relationship looks like or what parallel parenting looks like. But even with adult children, I'm seeing a lot of clients really struggle with a lot of fear around how this is going to impact their relationship with their adult children or their grandchildren as well. So it's definitely a real challenge for people. There's no question about it.
Sam Asra [00:07:52]:
And I think the other challenge is coming to terms with the fact that this person, assuming that it's a responsible co parenting relationship, that they will be in your life forever, like, you will actually not get rid of them. You will see them at the wedding, you will see them when they have grandchildren, when your kids are when the kids have children. Like so how do I cope with the fact that this person maybe I hate with all my, you know, with, with every fiber of my being. How do I cope with the fact that under understanding that having both parents in the kid's life is essential for their well being, how do I balance those two conflicting ideas? I don't want this other person in my life, but I know that they are important to my kids development or the court enforces it.
Leah Hadley [00:08:43]:
Yeah, that's true. Right. I wrote a blog post a while ago that actually got some, some positive feedback, some negative feedback. But really what the crux of the post was was that I actually prioritize my relationship with my co parent more so than I quote, put the kids first. Because I believe that that relationship is a really, really important one in my life. It may not be, you know, a romantic relationship anymore, but we are absolutely in this parenting journey together. And like you said, Sam, we will be for the rest of our lives. Right.
Leah Hadley [00:09:21]:
And so while there was definitely that year of like I can't even be in the same physical space with you post divorce, you know, as we've grown and evolved as parents, parents over the years, it is something that I really focus on making sure that that person knows that, you know, like he had to go to the hospital. I think it was like six months ago or something. And you better believe I was there at the hospital taking the kids to the hospital, like making sure that he knew that I value that relationship. And I don't know that enough people really consider that when we're looking at, you know, yes, this is a difficult time and yes, you may have a lot of anger and negative feelings toward this person, but that doesn't mean you always have to right it. Like we can work on resolving some of that stuff over time.
Sam Asra [00:10:04]:
Well, let me ask you how did that. Because that's, I think what's. It's hard. I think that's the challenge. It's difficult to get over that you may have been with this person for a decade or longer and they betrayed you or you feel betrayed or something. Whatever happened, even if it just grew apart, you're still feeling like almost like a grieving, you know, grieving this relationship that you don't want to keep re experiencing even in a friendly manner. How did that affect your life going forward? And with her kids, like how did your. The hard decision you made to say I'm going to focus on this even though I hate it?
Leah Hadley [00:10:40]:
Yeah, it made life easier. You know, like initially it was very Difficult. Initially, there was a lot of biting my tongue. Right. There was a lot. Because you're in those old patterns. Right. It's very easy to get into those old patterns. That person says something that you don't agree with, with, or you want to make sure to immediately correct because your children heard it and it's not.
Leah Hadley [00:10:59]:
Whatever. But I really had to learn to bite my tongue because at the end of the day, like I said, I decided this was an important person in my life. And he and I had that conversation. So it wasn't like I was making that decision in a silo. It was, hey, right now, what we're doing, it sucks. I mean, I don't have a better word for it. Like, it is not sustainable. We are going to have many years of, like, this constant conflict, and there's just neither one of us is built for that.
Leah Hadley [00:11:25]:
Like, we're not, you know, people who. It wasn't a high conflict divorce. Like, this is not the kind of lives that we wanted for ourselves or for our children. Right. And so it was us both proactively, number one, having that conversation and then number two, forcing ourselves to follow through. Now, do we get little tiffs here and there? Do we always agree about stuff on the kids? No, but we wouldn't if we were married either. Right?
Sam Asra [00:11:46]:
Right.
Leah Hadley [00:11:48]:
So we figure it out.
Sam Asra [00:11:50]:
Right. Right.
Leah Hadley [00:11:52]:
So what about you, Sam? I know you do a lot in helping fathers to really maybe feel like they have some more control or kind of create that stability in their lives. How do you help them to really take those, like, practical steps, to kind of set those. Those healthy boundaries and really communicate effectively during the process?
Sam Asra [00:12:10]:
Yeah, I think it's largely a skill and a lot. Unfortunately, a lot of men don't learn this growing up just simply with the. The. The culture and how they grew up. And so, you know, the art of communication, you know, believe it or not, and knowing how much is too much and how much is too little. Like, I get fathers on both sides of the spectrum. I get fathers are like, you know what? I can't believe she cheated on me and did all this stuff, and now she's going to court and lying about me trying to take the kids. I'm going to do all these horrible things to her and all this stuff.
Sam Asra [00:12:47]:
I'm like, okay, hold on. First of all, even if you wanted to and succeeded, it would cost you every penny that you had and your kids anyway. So that's not right. The other way is like, I'm just gonna do what she wants and hope that she's gonna, you know, you know, see the light. It's like, no, she's been taking from you since the beginning of the relationship. She's going to keep taking. That's why you left her. Because you, you know, decided that enough's enough.
Sam Asra [00:13:14]:
I don't want to be a someone that she keeps taking from. Okay, let's find the middle. And the way I, I train them is, first of all, we start them off with, you know, repeat after me, here's how you say it, and then we explain why. So one of those things is like, for example, the classic case is, you know, can I see the kids more? Or can I see the kids here? It's like you're asking for permission versus saying the court said, I get these hours. You know, I'm following that. So you see the difference of like, even just posture, like, can I see the kids? Is more like, you know, kind of a passive stance of like, you know, you're like, she's in control, by the way. It works both ways, you know. So if you're in this position, you know, can I see the kids? No, it's like, you're not asking for permission.
Sam Asra [00:14:04]:
It's in the court order that you get the kids on this day, in these hours. So instead of that saying, hey, you know, you know, just following the court order here, you know, I want to pick them up on Thursday. Which time works best for you, 2:00pm or 5:00pm Now, I'm giving them a sense of choice because that's what they want, a sense of control. But I ultimately get what I want. It's kind of like a toddler. Like, it's like the same thing.
Leah Hadley [00:14:32]:
Sam.
Sam Asra [00:14:33]:
I was like, I remember doing that divorce. Listen, high conflict divorce is immature adults fighting it out and not saying, you know, again, there's a lot of factors at play, but you have to treat it as that. Like, this person always got their way because you thought that would appeasing them would solve it. It doesn't solve it. So, same way as a toddler who's like you, every time you go to Walmart, they want the toy. And it's like you say no. And then they, you know, scream and yell and do a, you know, temper tantrum. You finally capitulate and say, yes, that's what you're doing.
Sam Asra [00:15:07]:
And then now they always get what they want versus saying, you either get this or this. Now I'm giving you a sense of control, but I'm controlling the outcome either way because I'm only giving you two outcomes, which I'm fine with. So. So another classic example is like holidays, hey, Father's Day coming up. I know it's your time technically, but, you know, like, can we trade with Mother's Day? Because that comes on my time, you know, would you be willing to make that trade? So there's certain, like, ways you can word things. It's amazing, the art of words and how we word things using the word I versus you. You know, you need to do this versus I feel like this is best for our kids. Totally different posture of like, oh, wow, you know, versus.
Sam Asra [00:15:53]:
So you see, like these little tricks can make a huge difference on like how the outcome place. And a lot of men don't know that, you know, men or women. But a lot of men, again, conditioned, like, they don't, A lot of, they don't understand how it impacts or how it comes across sometimes because they're just, they don't have the nurturing. A lot of them don't have the nurturing figures in their life to say, you know, that was insensitive. Right. There's no one to tell them, unfortunately. So here comes Sam to the rescue. To, to say, hey, that comes off as aggressive or hey, the way you're texting, that comes across.
Sam Asra [00:16:26]:
What do you mean? Like, I just, you know, I always text. I don't care how you always text. Like, going this way, right? So those kinds of things, so soft skills, you'd be amazed at how, how much that actually makes a difference. And that stuff lawyers don't teach you because, you know, that's not their job, so.
Leah Hadley [00:16:46]:
Well, it's not their job. And in reality, right. I mean, lawyers do benefit from conflict, right? So there is a conflict of interest there when it comes to the economics of divorce. And I think that's why it's so, so wonderful that divorce coaches like yourself exist because that way, you know, there is a lot that can be processed outside of the legal system and help you to get to a position of having a more efficient and effective negotiation through the divorce process. Because you're prepared, right?
Sam Asra [00:17:15]:
Exactly, exactly.
Leah Hadley [00:17:18]:
So what are some ways that parents can really protect their kids from the fallout of a high conflict divorce?
Sam Asra [00:17:25]:
So as far as after the divorce. Okay, so first of all, you want to, you want to see where you're at with your co parent. I mean, kind of like you, Leah, like when you saw the state of your relationship with your co parent, that's really important to see. How can we resolve this? Because in the long run, it's going to be best for our kids. The other thing is supporting the other parents involvement. Even if you don't like them, as long as they're not abusive or actually, you know, a negative, you know, having a negative effect on your kids, as much as you hate it, supporting the other person's involvement is going to go a long way. Because I can, you can look it up yourself. There's a long list of statistics of what happens to kids when they don't have their father in their life or their mother in their life.
Sam Asra [00:18:17]:
I mean, it's, you know, at higher risk of teen pregnancy, higher risk to use drugs, be an alcoholic, to drop out of a college, to be homeless, to suicide rates. I mean, father and mother, by the way, you can look those up online. So you're putting your own child at risk to appease yourself and your feelings, you know, and I know that's hard, that's difficult. But if your kids matter more to you, and again, as long as the other parent is not an actual negative effect, you know, not abusing them, you know, physically or anything like that, then supporting that involvement is the first step towards healing. I would also say, you know, if you can afford it, counseling and therapy is a great, is a great thing to get your children on. The earlier the better because the more they bottle it up, the more they, they struggle with it, the harder it is to, to undo it. The last thing I'll say is having an open communication with your kids. Like a lot of times I see, like if you talk about the other spouse, you get irritated.
Sam Asra [00:19:24]:
I don't want to hear about him or him or, or, or her. You know, it's like then they can't tell you what happened over there. Like you're not leaving an open sense of communication to tell you. Even if there's good things. Like you should not, you should not be angry or jealous. That's like there's something fun that happened over there. It's like you should be happy that your child is happy and having a good time. Right.
Sam Asra [00:19:47]:
But again, those personal feelings of like, oh, you're having fun with them. Okay, you know, what about me over here? I'm. It's the classic I'm the responsible parent and they're the fun parent. I get that all the time too. To say like I'm the do your homework and chores parent and they're the fun parent on the weekends. Right. But you should also feel happy for them if they are having fun, you know, with the other parent.
Leah Hadley [00:20:13]:
Absolutely. And it's not even just for Your kids. Right. Like, even though you may feel in a moment that anger or that like, you know, you want to be vindicated or whatever that looks like for you, it really, if you can put that aside, you're going to feel better as a parent, as a human being, as a co parent. Right. To be able to have positive communication in all of these spaces. So while a lot of times we're always talking, talking about it, like put the kids first, let's do what's in the best interest of the kids. Part of what's doing the best interest of the kids is taking care of yourself and making sure that you are in a space to be able to communicate with this person if you need to.
Leah Hadley [00:20:51]:
Right. To be able to celebrate the fact that the kids are having these wonderful experiences in their life even if you're not the one providing for them. Right.
Sam Asra [00:21:00]:
Yeah. And it's ironic because the kids, when you want to try and control, let's say the, the dialogue between you and your kids, you actually lose control. Here's what I mean. If you say like I don't want to talk to her, don't bring him up or don't, or don't bring her up, whoever you are not getting the hundred percent free flowing information. So you lose control because you have no visibility now. You don't know what's happening over there, whether good or bad, you know. So for the interest of you as a mother or a father, knowing what's going on in your kid's life, it actually behooves you to, you know, swallow your pride and just listen so that you get 100% of the information so that then you have actually more control because the more visibility you have on your child, the more then you can do what you need to do to, you know, make sure that their well being is taken care of.
Leah Hadley [00:21:58]:
Yeah, that's such an important point and I'm glad that you made it. Sam, we are just about up on time here and I know you have a fantastic resource for our audience. Do you want to tell us about that?
Sam Asra [00:22:09]:
Absolutely. So I did a little training on the five questions that we use to save our clients up to $96,000 in legal fees. These are five questions that you need to ask your lawyer and you will save a whole bunch of money because you will know whether you have the right lawyer for you or not. And it's up on my website and I'm sure Leah here will provide you a link to that.
Leah Hadley [00:22:33]:
Yeah, we'll put a link in the show notes and then also Sam, where can people find more information about you?
Sam Asra [00:22:40]:
Yeah, if you go to FathersConnect Co, there's my website. I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, tick tock and YouTube.
Leah Hadley [00:22:49]:
Wonderful. So we will make sure to include Sam's links to his social media in the show notes as well. So if you want to connect with him you can find more information about him. I know we don't only have women following our show. I know we do have men as well. But some of you ladies who are listening might find that Sam might be a great resource for your spouse as well. So please keep him in mind. Thank you so much for being here with us. Sam, any final words of wisdom you want to share with our audience?
Sam Asra [00:23:20]:
Wow, that's a lot of pressure. Focus on your wellbeing. And I want to reiterate what Leah said, which is focus on yourself first and then I think the rest will come. So thank you so much Leah for having me.
Leah Hadley [00:23:36]:
Thank you. It has been my absolute pleasure and for our audience, thanks for being with us and we will see you next week. Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
