Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce finance and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention.
Leah Hadley [00:00:24]:
Hi there and welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I am so happy that you are here with us today. We have a wonderful guest today. This is Dr. Patty Villarreal is the founder and executive director of Holding Space for Psychological Wellness, a group practice based in Chicago, Illinois. With over 15 years of experience as a psychotherapist, she works with individuals across the lifespan to foster healing through trust, safety, and connection. Her approach centers on creating a space of transparency and unconditional positive regards, empowering clients to reclaim their agency and build healthier relationships with themselves and others.
Leah Hadley [00:01:06]:
Welcome. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Patricia Villarreal [00:01:09]:
Thank you. You pronounced that last name perfectly, Leah. I figured I should give you praise for it.
Leah Hadley [00:01:21]:
So, Patty, tell me a little bit about how you got into the work that you do.
Patricia Villarreal [00:01:26]:
So, you know, I suppose strangely, or maybe this is a little more of an uncommon story, but, like, as a child, I just always really connected with helping people and the human condition. I suppose it's an element of being an empath without having known it as a child. And then of course, that was limited understanding of what it even meant to be a psychologist. But as I, you know, got my undergrad and then went on for a master's, I just knew that I loved having the opportunity to connect with the human condition via understanding myself more. And I thought, like, if this is a way that I can help other people learn and grow then, and. And heal, then sign me up. And so my first career, like, official career, big girl job was working for a case manager for DCFS for Intact Family Services.
Patricia Villarreal [00:02:34]:
A lot of what we did was like, referral based for services. And so while doing that for like a couple years in between undergrad and grad, I was like, nah, I want to be the provider. I want to. I want to, you know, really get in there and. And potentially be a change creator and supporter in those ways. So did that and so far, still love it.
Leah Hadley [00:02:59]:
That's awesome. And so what inspired you to found Holding Space for Psychological Wellness?
Patricia Villarreal [00:03:05]:
Yeah, so throughout my work experience, I've worked in kind of like, all settings. I've worked in community mental health. As I said, I've worked in case management and bigger systems like DCFS, inpatient, outpatient, the full lifespan meaning from like itty bitty, as young as the youngest I ever worked with was like a three year old and then like through like one of the eldest patients which I still currently have 82 and she is fabulous. And so in, in doing the work in different settings and such. When I transitioned to private practice after having my first child, just for the flexibility, I realized I loved doing the work. But I felt, I don't know how, I don't know, I felt like I was missing that more creative element and being able to really practice some of my leadership skills and qualities. And I wanted to create a space that felt more, I don't know, more supportive also for the clinicians that would eventually work with me. I knew when I, when I started the practice it was, I, it was, I was a solo practitioner in my practice and I knew from the very beginning that I would need like at least one person available for me to just be like hi and like a drive by consultation as I call them, sometimes in between sessions or just for emotional support.
Patricia Villarreal [00:04:42]:
And so that's kind of how the practice has grown organically. Just people that have been interested in kind of exploring different private practice space.
Leah Hadley [00:04:53]:
And how has your approach evolved over the years.
Patricia Villarreal [00:04:58]:
Therapeutically speaking or as a leader? Therapeutically speaking, I think it's evolved in, as you might imagine in similar in your career, the more people and lives and life experiences you come across, the, the richer your experience and understanding of the world and the human condition is. So what's evolved? I would say one of the bigger pieces that's evolved for me is my confidence and in feeling that I'm great at what I do. And that's come through being able to see people change and grow and feel stronger and more confident themselves. So my approach in general has been, has shifted in just trusting myself more and then therefore being able to be more present in this space rather than feeling like I have to craft something for someone which earlier in your career you feel like, ah, that imposter syndrome strikes and you're just like, oh my gosh, I have all these interventions here. And so yeah, just being a little calmer in the process and trusting that we'll get there.
Leah Hadley [00:06:17]:
Yeah, I love that so much. It just makes me think about how far I've come in my own career. I remember when I was an equity research analyst, we had to present our, our stock ideas to the sales force in the morning. Like that was every morning made this morning meeting and I rem as A junior analyst going and sitting at the table and having to present in the
Leah Hadley [00:06:41]:
morning meeting and my heart beating so.
Leah Hadley [00:06:43]:
Fast and my hands being sweaty and me being so nervous. And now it's like, you want to talk about stocks? Let's talk about stocks all day long.
Patricia Villarreal [00:06:50]:
Let's go, baby. Yeah, no, certainly, certainly. Yeah. It's one of those things where, I mean, it's real time, what people go through all of the time and, you know, connecting with that, understanding that, that I'm here on this side at this point with so many years of experience, but the person sitting across from me isn't right. They're the expert in them and I am here to provide, hence how I named the practice, like a holding space that is hopefully centered, calm and able to not only hold space, but hold hope and confidence that people with the right support and motivation can change and will change and grow with patience and some education and guidance.
Leah Hadley [00:07:46]:
So your work really centers around helping people to feel safe, to feel seen, to feel empowered. Why do you think trust and emotional safety are so essential for healing?
Patricia Villarreal [00:07:58]:
I mean, if you think about it, I mean, even as you were just describing your experience as a junior analyst and like my experiences, starting off everybody's experiences, when something is new or unknown, that your body will physically react to something in that, like, you know, that parasympathetic nervous system is like, ah, you're not safe. Danger, danger. And so feeling safe is essential to be able to quiet your system down and be able to really almost like, to a perfectionist degree, really tease apart the different layers of our life experiences. What's happening, what's the experience, what is part of what's being activated for me, and how do we really sift through that to better understand ourselves so that we can act, lead, and behave more intentionally towards others, towards ourselves. And so without safety, we can't disarm some of these, what I'll call little alarm systems in our lives and in our bodies and minds that, that are there to tell us like, but is it safe to let your guard down? Now entering, you know, any traumas, any kind of traumas, and those systems are a little more hardwired to protect you. It's survivalistic. It's in the most basic way. So when we are feeling safe, we're able to really dig into things that are painful and trust that that person's going to be able to hold them for you and not weaponize them and not leave you hanging because they're going to be there time and time again and not not judge you for whatever it is.
Patricia Villarreal [00:10:02]:
You know, I often say, and this may be sound exaggerated, I guess, but like 99% of the time therapists know more about the individual sitting across from them than anybody else in their lives do. Because the risk of it being used against them, whether judgment or in any other way is non existent or should be non existent when we're creating a safe space.
Leah Hadley [00:10:31]:
So you emphasize transparency and co creating safety. What does that look like in practice when somebody's in emotional pain?
Patricia Villarreal [00:10:42]:
So the, the most important pieces like are that, that co creating safety and transparency is so important and, and what it looks like is just being authentic and honest. Honestly, sometimes it'll look like me saying like, I don't know that I believed you said that. Right. You know, people started like, hey, how you doing? And they're like, like okay, you just went high pitched there. That doesn't feel real. Let's go. Right. Just being willing to ask the difficult questions and allowing the patient to call me out if they need to call me out.
Patricia Villarreal [00:11:27]:
Right now. I'm human at the end of the day. Like I sure, I have all the expertise and all the experience and the expensive degrees, but you know, I'm just a human sitting across from someone. And so I don't presume that I know everything. And so I like to make sure that my patients know that I want to be challenged. Like if you don't feel like that's right, please let me know. If you feel like I'm going too fast or too hard at something that doesn't feel okay, I need you to let me know. It's not my agenda.
Patricia Villarreal [00:12:06]:
I like to let people know that and I need to trust that someone is going to say that to me when they need to say that to me. But it's, it's really about just having the conversations and, and then showing up as a human being. I, I, I'm a strong believer in which this is taboo for some people, but I'm a strong believer in, in self disclosures. Right. I've been there and I've cried with some of my patients. I laugh often. I try because I like it for myself, but I try to normalize all emotion. And so we can't pretend to be perfect sitting across from someone because that's not going to help them feel safe.
Patricia Villarreal [00:12:54]:
And I try to normalize just all of those pieces of being human and struggle.
Leah Hadley [00:13:00]:
Oh, that's so beautiful. Now we obviously work with a lot of people who are going through a huge life transition. Oftentimes they're going through a divorce and it can be really difficult to hold space for yourself during that season. What does that look like?
Patricia Villarreal [00:13:19]:
It should look gentle. A lot of what I sit with people in the midst of a storm. Right. Is helping them remember to give themselves grace. Sometimes what I do is say, well, what would you say? The things you're saying about yourself to someone else going through your situation? No. And so reminding them that the healing process is not linear. There's ups, downs. There is like, times where we're going to feel like, successful and stronger and more competent and confident.
Patricia Villarreal [00:14:03]:
And then there's going to be times even after that, that we're going to feel like, wait, all these skills that I thought I had, I'm not feeling it right now, you know, and so reminding them that it's a, it's about the journey and that it is natural to have ebbs and flows in mood and. Yeah, just kind of being with them in that grief too, and even identifying it as grief. When we're in those seasons of, of huge change, there's, you know, there, there's endings. Not, not all endings are due to, you know, moving or unfortunately, someone, you know, the death of someone special. But it is sometimes an ending relationship or having to cut off this idea of like a fantasy and, or a goal we had for our future and needing to let that go. And there's grief in that. And so in those points, it's just kind of moving slow and giving ourselves grace to move at whatever pace is realistic for us.
Leah Hadley [00:15:11]:
So I'm curious how you help people to reconnect with their power when they're feeling like their life is unraveling in front of them.
Patricia Villarreal [00:15:20]:
Mm. Of course, there's no one way to do that. But what I like to remind people, which oftentimes we forget, is like, about their successes. We need to remind them like, how far they've come and that they're here and that they're in a space where they're trying their best to work at it, even if that doesn't feel meaningful. The more we learn about people. Right. It's, it's not always just about the situation. Yes, we can do situational interventions and support, but our, My, my goal and how I practice, and many do, is that like deeper rooted interpersonal experience and being able to, like, what can we learn from this? Why not? We're in it and it's hurting, so we might as well try to learn something about ourselves in this moment.
Patricia Villarreal [00:16:25]:
And so being able to learn about them and be able to say, hey, you're saying all this stuff, but I know ABC about you. And that's, that's just. The evidence is suggesting that's not true. And so being able to be that person that can hold up a mirror to you in those times where you just can't see any of those qualities in yourself or in your life, that's some of the ways that we can support people. .
Leah Hadley [00:16:59]:
In your experience, what are some subtle ways people disconnect from their own needs or truths during a difficult season?
Patricia Villarreal [00:17:09]:
I'll say the easy answer, but vague, is avoidance. What does that look like? Yeah, more than we know is the point. So oftentimes, when things hurt or they're uncomfortable, we try to move away from them. Now, as a general rule of thumb, yes, that is beneficial for us in, in that we can relieve the pain in that moment. However, what's important to, to recognize is that the more we move away from something that's creating pain, the more we get used to kind of like numbing it or minimizing it. Just like, oh, it's fine. I found a solution. I'm just going to, you know, sweep this trash under the rug.
Patricia Villarreal [00:18:06]:
Well, we do that enough, guess what? There's gonna be lumps of trash under the rug and we're gonna start tripping over them. So the subtle ways is that it looks like it's no big deal to just, you know, I'll, I'll let that one slide. Or delegitimizing what they're feeling. Sometimes that can be direct gaslighting from a partner, a friend, a professor, you know, a professional colleague, whatever. And sometimes it can just be us saying, because our negative narratives are activated by something kind of like, well, you're not actually good at that, so maybe they're right. And then we delegitimize our own feelings, or if there's traumas that have impacted us in our self esteem, our guilt and shame spirals. And so they happen on really like micro scales sometimes. And then the next thing you know, you know, I've got, I've had people sitting across from me like I don't even know who I am.
Patricia Villarreal [00:19:07]:
Because over time we've avoided looking at ourselves because that was what we needed to survive. And that's fine, maybe it was adaptive for the moment. But we're in here doing the work, and so let's dive in.
Leah Hadley [00:19:21]:
I was having an image in my mind when you were describing kind of sweeping it under the rug. I. So I just recently had some people come and help organize my house. So I had, like, from years ago when my grandparents downsized their house, I had, like, stuff that I had brought in. And then I had, you know, both of my grandparents passed away, so I had more stuff that came in. And then when my mom sold her house, we brought more stuff in. And I have three kids. So, you know, stuff is accumulating over the years.
Leah Hadley [00:19:53]:
So many things of, like, my house, like, filling up with all this. And it has felt. Felt so amazing to have these women come in and just go through everything and get it organized and get rid of the stuff that needs to be gotten rid of. And, you know, if you just, like, apply that metaphor to kind of what you were talking about, Right. Like, visually, it really does fill you up. But if you think about that, like, it really does limit your capacity emotionally to deal with really anything else.
Patricia Villarreal [00:20:23]:
Yeah. I mean, if you're in that very physical sense, like, it limits the space you have to thrive.
Leah Hadley [00:20:29]:
Right.
Patricia Villarreal [00:20:30]:
And emotionally it does the same thing. Right. If. If it's packed away so tight and you're like, oh, that thing I needed is all the way at the bottom of the box. Right. That I haven't looked at in 20 years.
Leah Hadley [00:20:45]:
It's.
Patricia Villarreal [00:20:45]:
It's daunting. It's also terrifying. We're like, I don't remember what's in that box. I don't know if I look at that or. And then. Then here I am being like, yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:20:54]:
Yeah, no, we have to dig through that box. That's such a great example, because I've had those boxes.
Patricia Villarreal [00:21:00]:
We all have, Leah!. We all have.
Leah Hadley [00:21:06]:
Described that way. But I have to say, that really resonates.
Patricia Villarreal [00:21:09]:
Oh, good. I'm glad. Well, it's part of what I do. I come up with seemingly obscure metaphors often.
Leah Hadley [00:21:18]:
So for those who are listening, I'm wondering if there is a practice that you might recommend that somebody try today to start building a more compassionate inner dialogue.
Patricia Villarreal [00:21:29]:
You know, I wish I had a magic wand to just be like, hand out here, free swag. This will fix it all. You know, I. I really do. My. My heart would be filled. But I think. And this is going to sound like what?
Patricia Villarreal [00:21:46]:
But I think the thing that we can do for ourselves is to pay better attention, to be more mindful. A lot of what I do at the beginning of work with people is just to have them start noticing how often and how loud that inner dialogue is that people have. That really keeps them from doing, engaging, feeling powerful. That narrative that really just keeps them from moving in their lives is. Is kind of constant. And people don't recognize it. It's in the smallest of things and kind of like, oh, you forgot that thing. You're so dumb.
Patricia Villarreal [00:22:31]:
They're like, oh, here we go again. Right. And, and though, and those are PG versions of what we say to ourselves. And so the thing I would say is start to notice if it helps to write them down, if it helps to talk it through. Obviously I'm a biased proponent of speaking with someone and if it's not a professional, right away or for whatever reason, we have limited access to a professional. Even just like with a friend, just be like, hey man, I've noticed that I do this so often like a trusted, safe friend. Right? Do you ever do that? And just kind of explore some of the ways in which our minds are creating maybe some blocks for us. Now I'm not going to say it's all that all of our problems are self made.
Patricia Villarreal [00:23:28]:
Absolutely not. There are very real environmental, social, political realities that are oppressive to our systems. And also what we have power over, the only thing we have power over is ourselves. And so we cannot create change until we know what we're working with. And so noticing the ways in which we stumble and why is so super important.
Leah Hadley [00:23:59]:
I like how you said that right there at the end where you're talking about, you know, where we are the only ones who have power over ourselves. Right. And one of the things that I was thinking about around that sort of inner dialogue, it still happens to me to this day. I still hear my ex husband's voice, like from my first marriage. And my husband, because he and I have a very different relationship than I did in my first marriage, needs to remind me sometimes that like, hey, I'm not him. I'm not gonna have that reaction. And it's amazing, especially for those who are going divorced, going through a divorce, how much of that inner voice, it might not even be yours that you're hearing, right?
Patricia Villarreal [00:24:41]:
Oh yes, absolutely. And that's sort of, you know, when referencing, you know, traumas or trauma responses, it's that it's like we end up taking on what we've been told and, or even because of experiences that we live through and, or maybe even continue to put ourselves, put ourselves through. Right. Quote, unquote. Because that's where the kind of, that blame comes through, is kind. We, we, we start questioning our abilities and our capacity for creating change. And again, like that power, right. We've been disempowered by very many experiences in our lives.
Patricia Villarreal [00:25:27]:
And yes, we, we take on some of these experiences as truths.
Leah Hadley [00:25:36]:
Right.
Patricia Villarreal [00:25:37]:
And absolutely. That's part of what's so difficult is, you know, as. As I describe it, as. As we become more mindful of. Of ourselves and our narratives that some of the next steps and. Or the reasons for that are because it's so important for us. You know, there's a new, like, triggered is the new, like, pop psychology term. Right.
Patricia Villarreal [00:26:00]:
And be like, no, no, that's my trigger word. Or that's my trip, like trigger response or whatever. And. And yes, triggers are real. And also we need, as much as we need to articulate and set boundaries, that's what we're really talking about. Right. Like we need to set expectations and then a boundary for when people do not follow through with our expectations to keep ourselves safe. That said, our triggers are ours to be able to work through.
Patricia Villarreal [00:26:33]:
And it. I don't need someone else. And when we can't defer to someone else to walk on eggshells around our triggers because I have 20 million, you know, potentially 20 million triggers, like, nope, we can't talk about that. Nope, we're not going to do that. Nope. You know, that's creating a whole different kind of situation that we're not talking about today. But yes, it's one of those things where it's important to identify the things and the areas in which, like, I know I call it like, knowing our edges. Where do I end? And then the other person begins.
Patricia Villarreal [00:27:08]:
So your current husband is not your ex. And yes, that's true. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be something coming up in your relationship. Right? Yeah, it's kind of like, yes, that is true. And I am reacting to that or because I'm anticipating that. And also you are doing a little something that I'm not loving. So it's both. Right.
Leah Hadley [00:27:34]:
Right.
Patricia Villarreal [00:27:36]:
Because we're human and we're imperfect and that's okay, but that's how we grow. I need to know what's me, what's you, and what needs to work to create that shift that will feel better for us, both of us, ideally. Right.
Leah Hadley [00:27:52]:
Well, Patti, we are running up on time, and I just so appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us today. I have just gotten so much value out of our conversation, and I know that our listeners will as well. Where can they find you and connect with you online?
Patricia Villarreal [00:28:08]:
So, I do have a website that I need to rework, but it is just www.holdingspacepsych.com. Our Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook are all under the same @holdingspacepsych And you know, we like to our Instagram I have a new and wonderful social media person and she's doing a wonderful job of really putting out content that is accessible and hopefully in those like small ways being able to get people to just reflect on some of the things that they could benefit from shifting and or reaching out to providers to get that extra support.
Leah Hadley [00:28:57]:
Yeah, that's great. And any final words that you want to share with our audience before we wrap up?
Patricia Villarreal [00:29:07]:
Just that even in the hardest of times, we need to remember or it it benefits us to remember that we're still here and we have survived and that even if it seems dark, there is still hope to be able to create the change that we want for our lives. And that sometimes unfortunately due to depression or major life stressors that feel like you're in the deepest, darkest hole that's impossible to get out of. Yeah, depression and those experiences can, can tell us some lies, you know, and traumas can tell us some lies about ourselves. And we need to really put in the effort to be able to shift out of that mode rather than unfortunately sometimes giving in to some of those and feeding it a bit. And that helps out there in any way for the most part. And that's my hope, is to kind of create more and more accessibility. But there is help out there.
Leah Hadley [00:30:23]:
Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you for being with us today and for our audience. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
Patricia Villarreal [00:30:31]:
Thank you so much.
Leah Hadley [00:30:34]:
Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
