Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce finance and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention.
Leah Hadley [00:00:25]:
Hi there and welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I am so happy that you are here with us today. You are in the right spot. We have a fabulous guest with us today who's just going to share so much wisdom. This is Carla Shohet, who is an integrative trauma psychologist, educator and podcast host with over two decades of experience supporting individuals recovering from trauma, narcissistic abuse, and chronic stress related health issues. Her clinical work is rooted in neuroscience and nervous system health care, integrating modalities such as somatic experiencing, internal family systems, brain spotting, trauma, hypnotherapy. Oh, you got all the buzzwords. Dvp, polyvagal theory and positive psychology.
Leah Hadley [00:01:13]:
As the creator of the MTN Pathway and founder of the T H A N A R A program, Carla offers both professional and personal healing programs designed to support deep transformation. A mother of three, she is also the host of Time to Unlearn, a podcast that brings trauma education and hope to listeners globally. Carla's work empowers cycle breakers, helping them heal their nervous system, reclaim their identity, and protect their children from intergenerational trauma, especially through high conflict, separation and divorce. Welcome, Carla. Thank you so much for joining us.
Carla Shohet [00:01:51]:
Hi Leah. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for the introduction.
Leah Hadley [00:01:55]:
Oh, it was my absolute pleasure. My goodness, you have so much experience in education. I'm so looking forward to learning from you. You know, we're talking about narcissistic abuse today and this word narcissist is really thrown around quite a bit, especially when people are going through divorce. You know, there are a lot of actions that people take that might be out of character. Right, but that's not really what we're talking about. We're talking about true narcissistic abuse. So tell us, like, who are we actually talking about here?
Carla Shohet [00:02:30]:
So yeah, that's interesting point you make because often the word is thrown around a lot, especially during a high conflict, separation or divorce. And the legal system does not care about that word. In fact, it's counterproductive in a legal court place to even use that word. And what you mentioned is reactive abuse. Really the is the actual innocent party who is reacting to the, you know, the constant attacks and manipulation which is sometimes often very covert. So narcissists, I don't look at narcissism as a diagnosis. I don't look at anything as a diagnosis really anymore.
Carla Shohet [00:03:06]:
I look at everything from a trauma informed lens. And that means that I see narcissism on a spectrum. Like most diagnosis, they're always on a spectrum. And I look at it as not as a personality type or a personality flaw even. Even though this might sound strange heard like that, but I look at it as a protective strategy of a very dysregulated nervous system, a very wounded person who protects themselves from their own vulnerabilities by projecting their pain outwardly in really horrendous ways onto other people. Which makes a divorce with some such a person incredibly challenging.
Carla Shohet [00:03:48]:
It's not your typical divorce.
Leah Hadley [00:03:49]:
Yeah. Talk about why divorcing a narcissist is so much more challenging than just your general typical separation.
Carla Shohet [00:03:57]:
Yeah, well, this kind of divorce is just. Well, it's not just the end of a relationship. It's actually a continuation of the abuse in a new form. With a narcissist, you're not really dealing with someone who wants resolution, unfortunately, you're dealing with someone who wants control. And the divorce process becomes literally like a new stage for their performance. Narcissists wear this kind of very performative mask and they manipulate and they retaliate.
Carla Shohet [00:04:28]:
So that's. That continues and often, unfortunately doesn't end with divorce, but actually is amplified. And the emotional challenge for the other part is that, you know, you're likely still reeling from gaslighting and confusion and you're now being asked, which is probably the reason why you wanted to separate from this person. But now in a divorce scenario, you're now being asked to navigate complex legal, financial and parental decisions while you're still traumatized. So strategically, it's also harder because narcissists can often exploit the legal system. They normally highly intelligent and they're very practiced at pretending to be someone they're not. They want to punish, they want to destabilize their former partner, especially fewer the one that initiated the divorce, which in the UK, statistically it's mostly women that initiate divorce. So it's not, you know, for them, it's not about fairness at all.
Carla Shohet [00:05:31]:
It's about winning. It always is with the narcissist. So, you know, they're likely going to look like the calm and, you know, charming one and you appear like the crazy, emotional, dysregulated one. You look like a narcissist, if anything in that scenario. And so this makes this kind of divorce really disorienting and absolutely traumatizing and exhausting and long often. Yeah. So it's not your typical kind of amicable separation, usually.
Leah Hadley [00:06:00]:
So many great points that you made there, Carla. I mean, really, I think. I don't know that I've ever heard it kind of said that way of, like, sort of that performative aspect of, like, the divorce being kind of a new stage for the narcissist. But, boy, do we see that in practice. Right? And I imagine a lot of our audience can really resonate with some of the things that you were saying around being, you know, experiencing being gaslit and, you know, just kind of like all of a sudden, it's like their world is turned upside down, and it's like up is down and down is up, and it's all very confusing. And why does the abuse often escalate during and after divorce? And what can survivors do to protect themselves?
Carla Shohet [00:06:43]:
Well, it escalates because the narcissist experience the end of the relationship, especially if you initiated it as a narcissistic injury. So it's the worst possible thing you can do to a narcissist. Your boundary of wanting to separate threatens their sense of control and actually exposes their illusion of superiority. That's why so many survivors are really shocked to find that the moment they try to leave, the abuse becomes actually more intense, not less. You know, and the narcissist will react, you know, violently, often, not necessarily physically, but they'll launch smear campaigns. They'll fabricate stories to lawyers or courts. You know, they'll financially punish you or manipulate the children against you.
Carla Shohet [00:07:26]:
All of this is to maintain their falsified persona that they're trying to portray to the world all the time and to try and maintain a sense of control. And even if you're trying to separate peacefully, which is, you know, what most people will want, you know, they'll want the abuse to lessen, which is, as I said earlier, the reason often that we see these divorces, you know, being initiated by the partner that isn't the narcissist. The narcissist will always and often escalate things just to provoke a reaction. And it's almost like a way to try and reclaim their dominance over you. Yeah, it's very sad. Unfortunately, it makes things a lot more complex, especially if you're working with, you know, a lawyer or a solicitor, depending on what country you're in, that isn't trauma informed, that isn't that doesn't understand what narcissistic abuse actually is.
Carla Shohet [00:08:15]:
And obviously these people in the legal system know what the courts and the judges want to hear. And it's certainly not the emotional stuff, but from the perspective of the person that's initiating the divorce with a narcissist, you really, to be able to protect yourself, you do need to stop engaging in an emotional way, which is really extremely difficult. Right, because in any divorce, you know, emotions are high, and unfortunately, when emotion is high, intelligence just drops. But it is so key, especially in a high conflict separation with a narcissist.
Leah Hadley [00:08:47]:
It is. It's so key, and it's even harder because that narcissist knows how to play on your emotions. And so even if you are a person under ordinary circumstances who could maybe, you know, separate yourself a little bit, that can be so challenging for somebody who you're dealing with, this person who knows, I mean, they have years of manipulation, right, and really knows how to push your button. So that's tough. What strategies do you recommend for people to kind of help them with that?
Carla Shohet [00:09:16]:
And you do. Those strategies is. Strategy is the right word. You have to be strategic, unfortunately, you have to try and keep emotions out, which I know, I realize it's really, really difficult, but you have to keep communication in writing only. You've got to document everything. You know, avoid any phone calls or in person discussions unless you're legal, legally required to have them. And I would say that, you know, most importantly, you have to focus on regulating your own nervous system through the process, which can be quite drawn out sometimes because the narcissist just wants to create drama and, you know, in order to. For you not to be drawn into these kind of reactive patterns that the.
Carla Shohet [00:09:53]:
The narcissist is trying to constantly, like, you know, kind of pick at your wounds and push your buttons in order not to react to the narcissist so that you look, you know, regulated. You must try to regulate your nervous system through this process, which is the, probably the biggest and most important thing you can do throughout, you know, even if it's just two minutes a day. But, you know, that way you are the one that appears and probably feels calmer, you know, and you can have more clarity and keep, you know, everything in order, documented so that they then lose that power. And this is why I was telling you just before we started recording that I've created a document for your audience that might need it with regards to having a safe exit plan, which is often why I help my clients in this situation to create for themselves so that they can have, you know, black and white, you know, things that they can come back to and just keep their heads clear. Because obviously when we get emotional, it's very, very difficult to have clarity to have, you know, it gets very confusing and dysregulating. So that, that will include, will include it in your show notes if, if you're okay with that to help.
Leah Hadley [00:11:00]:
Oh, absolutely.
Carla Shohet [00:11:02]:
Things that they can do to help themselves through this horrible process.
Leah Hadley [00:11:06]:
Yeah, yeah. Are there any specific practices or exercises that someone could use to help regulate their nervous system?
Carla Shohet [00:11:15]:
Yeah, absolutely. I, there, there are so many, but there are some that I generally recommend because they're simple and easy to do quick. To all my clients, they're kind of the game changers if you like. There's orienting, which is basically looking around the room you're in. And you can use this even in a courtroom to, to keep message, you know, to your body, to your brain that you actually safe that you're looking around the room and just kind of really focusing on noticing things so you're not kind of in your emotional brain kind of going into overdrive. And this is something that you have to kind of practice. It's not something you can just do in the moment. It's really, really important to practice and to.
Carla Shohet [00:11:57]:
So that your body recognizes it when you most need it. The other thing would be breath work. So a simple way, way that works to communicate to our brain that we are safe right now, especially when we're in that fight flight response or we're maybe numb and like completely dissociated because it's gotten to be too much , is to extend your exhale. So you just do a nice deep breath. And obviously these are things that need to be practiced because again, in the moment you're not going to remember unless you practice them before when it's most tense, you know. So just kind of having a longer exhale is telling the body, okay, you don't have to fight anymore. When we're in fight or flight, we have shallow breathe.
Carla Shohet [00:12:43]:
If you think of animals running from a predator, they wouldn't be able to just kind of. So this very simple technique is, is literally a signal and it activates our parasympathetic part of the nervous system that helps to bring you out on that fight or flight where you're more likely to react to the narcissist or if you're being kind of questioned by the courts on things that are not true. And, and you get activated because, you know, you feel like no one's believing you and the narcissist is lying about you and yet you're having to defend yourself. But it's a way to say, you know, right now I'm safe, I'm not under threat. Somatic self touch can also help to, to kind of soothe yourself. And you can do that not necessarily like this, but you know, you know, if you're about to speak, just put a hand on your chest, or more subtly, hands on your belly and just gently press and speak to yourself in the way that you would to your own children if they were feeling afraid. So, you know, you're okay in your head, you know, not out loud, otherwise you might look like a crazy one. But, and also the other thing that often happens is that because we are so stressed in these situations, especially with, you know, in a court setting, we can get really dry mouth.
Carla Shohet [00:13:59]:
And that's what cortisol does. So cortisol is like a stress hormone that helps us to mobilize, you know, in case we are actually under the threat of a predator and we have to run off or fight. Cortisol starts to be released in our body adrenaline and it creates this kind of sense of dry mouth, which makes it difficult. Sometimes it stops us speaking. So having a bottle of ice cold water with you at all time and just sipping that through the court proceeding really helps. And it also helps can help to activate the mammalian divine reflex, which is another signal of safety to the body. It's kind of changes your state automatically. And you know, to remember that even doing some of these things, there's obviously a lot more.
Carla Shohet [00:14:42]:
Right. So you want to try and regulate your body out of this kind of constant stuck in survival mode of fight flight that you would be when you are going through this process, or maybe you're numbed out because it's just already been too long and too much and you're kind of your body shutting you down. This is not, you know, because your weak is actually your nervous system, your autonomic nervous system doing its job to try and protect you as counteractive as it might feel when you're going through it. But the important thing is to be able to do all these things in the, you know, in the most tense moments, whether it's in court or whether you're having to hand over the children, or whether you're talking to your lawyer when you need most clarity and most calm. The important thing is to practice these kind of nervous system regulation techniques, you know, daily through this process. Yeah, it's a practice because the body then can recognize when you do them in the moment more quickly and it knows what to do. So even if you just do like two minutes a day and you remember to just take a deep breath every now and then and just lengthen your exhale, it will just give you more clarity, you know, better sleep, hopefully.
Carla Shohet [00:15:49]:
And, that's really within your control. This is what you can do. And you can then hopefully respond to legal or emotional attacks more regulated so you don't end up looking like you're the nutcase, basically. That makes sense. And there's a lot more and there will be a lot more in the resource that I've created for people that need it. So please do look at that.
Leah Hadley [00:16:13]:
Absolutely. That's fantastic because there's so many options there. They're all very, very simple. And you can try, kind of see what works for you. Pick something. And I like your comment, Carla, about really committing to it as a practice. So that way it really is a tool in your toolbox when you need it. Right.
Carla Shohet [00:16:31]:
And it needs to be body based. It's not. This is not just about thinking through things. Yes. In order for our logical brain to be online, we need to kind of soothe our emotional parts of the brain and we can do that through using our body, our breath, you know, our eyes. There are some techniques you mentioned. One of the modalities I use is brain spotting, you know, where you can actually use your eye positioning to help you kind of stay grounded and anchored in yourself, in your adult self in that logical wise place rather than, you know, dysregulation that the narcissist is constantly trying to create so that they can win against you.
Leah Hadley [00:17:07]:
Yeah, yeah. Now, I think a lot of people who have kids at home feel, you know, just with, I think social media and kind of just a lot of the conversation out there, feel a lot of pressure to co parent. But one of the things that I think is really important for people to understand is the difference between co parenting and parallel parenting and why when you are in a high conflict situation, parallel parenting might be more appropriate. Can you talk to us a little bit about the difference and, and when one might be more appropriate than the other?
Carla Shohet [00:17:43]:
Yeah. So I think in a high conflict situation where the parent is either, you know, some somehow toxic or harmful to the children and narcissists will use their own children as tools for manipulating whatever you know, is their tools for getting their own needs met. So I would say that in a high conflict separation, it's absolutely essential to understand what parallel parenting is because that's the only way you're going to be able to keep your sanity and keep your children safe. Co parenting is just not possible with a narcissist because co parenting requires collaboration, you know, honest communication, mutual respect, which are things that are completely missing in a high conflict or narcissistic dynamic anyway. Parallel parenting, on the other hand, is a model that allows each parent to operate independently with clear boundaries and minimal contact. So I often describe it like a train, like train tracks, and the parents are the two separate rails and the child is actually the train. So the tracks don't need to talk to each other or meet at all. They just need to be steady and aligned in a direction so that the child can keep moving forward safely.
Carla Shohet [00:18:55]:
And you know, what parallel parenting does is it prevents or. Well, it reduces conflict. Conflict. It doesn't always prevent it. Unfortunately, it does prevent manipulation, often because you're just kind of, you know, agreeing on certain terms and just going your own way about it. And, you know, it allows the healthier parent to create a stable, nurturing environment without being constantly overwhelmed by the narcissistic parent who's constantly trying to still create drama even after the divorce is finished. If you have children together, that often happens. And also it reduces their ability to undermine you all the time, which is also what they do to try and gain control still.
Carla Shohet [00:19:38]:
And the other thing it does is also gives you that space to be able to regulate because you don't have to respond immediately. You can kind of do the things that you need to do to kind of calm down before responding because you're only communicating in writing, as I said earlier, and only when strictly necessary and when you decide as well. And that also protects you, you know, not only emotionally, but legally as well. If you're still going through kind of decisions on, you know, what parent has access to what child and how long and all this so that at least the child that way has one safe, consistent parent, which is, in my opinion, professionally and personally, it's more than enough. Some people think that you need two parents, but when one parent is harmful and damaging, actually, I feel like, you know, it's like kidneys, you know, we can live well with just one healthy one. And I think that's true for children as well. We just need, as humans, we just need one safe anchor to be able to be healthy ourselves. And I think if that one parent that's healthy can create some boundaries and some space for themselves to continue to be healthy, that's also beneficial to the child as well.
Leah Hadley [00:20:46]:
I so appreciate you saying that because I was raised by a single mom who was fantastic. And I mean, I'm not going to take away that it was hard. It was definitely harder on her. But we were in a much better situation with my dad not part of the picture than if he had been. And so I appreciate you acknowledging that because so many people just assume that people are better off with two parents. It depends on the parents, right?
Carla Shohet [00:21:11]:
Absolutely. And I would say that goes for marriage as well. Right. A lot of women that come to me to do this work, they are, you know, at the beginning questioning, do I stay for the children? That's not always the best case scenario for children.
Leah Hadley [00:21:25]:
Right.
Carla Shohet [00:21:25]:
It depends on.
Leah Hadley [00:21:26]:
I'll be honest. My parents divorced when I was 8. And I'm so grateful that my mom made the decision to move forward because she was protecting us. You know, she was making sure that we were going to be well cared for. And yeah, I'm grateful for that decision. No question about it. Carla. I always feel like when women come to me in these high conflict situations, they really need a strong team to support them.
Leah Hadley [00:21:49]:
It is a tough process. In a typical situation, it's tough. Your life is changing. There's a lot going on. Right. But when you add in all this complexity with, you know, the person creating drama and manipulation and all of this, I just think having that strong team to rally around you and provide the support that you need to get you through this process so you can really feel empowered in the next phase of your life is so important. Can you talk a little bit about how you support people and where people can find out more about the kind of work that you do?
Carla Shohet [00:22:23]:
So at the moment, I think the best place to find out information about me is carlashohet.com, my website, which has been currently updated as well. There will be lots of resources to, you know, free resources to start with, to start kind of helping yourself. You can email me if you have any questions at carlashohet.com I'm also on the normal social media platforms. There's lots of content on there, even about coercive control, if that's one of the things that you're finding yourself in. Just the bare snippets that social media allow. And I haven't been on social media for quite some time because I'm trying to walk the talk myself and I don't think those spaces are very regulating for any of us, to be honest.
Carla Shohet [00:23:05]:
So. But there is plenty of content on that where you can go and get a feel for who I am and how I am and you know, whether I, you know, you resonate with the type of person I am because I think that's really, really important. And you know, unfortunately when you've been in a narcissistic abusive relationship, one of the things that goes out of the window is your, your own self trust and gut feeling and discernment for your gut feeling. But I would say when, whenever you're going to choose someone, if you have the choice, someone your team of people, like you said, just go with your gut, you know, if it doesn't feel quite right, then there's a reason for that and trust that. And just, you know, wherever you can try and find people that understand what narcissistic abuse and high conflict people are like. Because when you don't have that support, it can kind of drive you a bit crazy. And you don't need to not be believed. You need to be believed 100%.
Leah Hadley [00:23:58]:
You don't need to be re traumatized by your team for sure.
Carla Shohet [00:24:00]:
Yeah. And I would say, you know, if I can share a couple of tips for people it is, you know, the first thing I share in the resource that I've created is how to form a safe exit plan. It's not about being paranoid, it's about being safe and giving yourself the best opportunity. And if by some magic the divorce proceeding isn't highly conflictual, great. But at least you know that you've got yourself and your children's safety as a priority, which is actually what the courts anyway look at is the children's well being first. So I would say set up a separate email address and a phone number so that you can use those just for communications with your ex, ideally on a different device like a different phone if you can. This kind of burner phones. So because you don't want their messages to be mixed with your new personal life that you're trying to build, you're trying to create space and division for your own peace of mind and harmony.
Carla Shohet [00:25:00]:
And that helps you be a better parent, it gives you back the control over when you see those messages. You can choose when to go and open the phone or open the email address and you're keeping that energy out of your daily routine. And there are apps that are courts approved, like our family wizard and they create a record of all the interactions which is so helpful in court. And it actually forces both sides to stay factual rather than, you know, finger pointing and getting into that kind of very dysregulating emotional stuff that is very normal when you're, you know, kind of ending a relationship, any relationship. As I said earlier, document everything. Save every email, every text, you know, any missed visits and just keep a log of the events. You have to a little bit be like a detective for, for, for a while and keep the dates and the facts because courts really do care about evidence, not emotion. As I've said, try as much as you can.
Carla Shohet [00:25:57]:
I know it's really difficult, but you must try to keep your emotion out of the courtroom. And also finally, I would say never respond instantly. You don't have to do that because if you're responding instantly, you're probably reacting rather than responding. You have the right to take a pause, take a breath, going to have a icy cold water and just come from your regulated adult self. That place of wisdom and you know, logic as well. You want the emotion also because you are, you know, we're emotional beings, we care, we care about our children, we care about ourselves. But you want to deal with the narcissist with the same medicine that they give, which is very logical and rational even though they're quite irrational. But then basically they're non emotional beings and that's why they can keep very this kind of facade up.
Carla Shohet [00:26:44]:
And I think all of that is where your real power lies. Not in reaction, but in actually choosing how you're going to respond. So if you do those things, I think is a good start to, to help yourself to deal with it better in terms of, you know, feeling like you're not falling apart as much at least.
Leah Hadley [00:27:02]:
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing those tips. I think they're so valuable. So many people will benefit from this episode. I know when people reach out to me and they are experiencing a high conflict, divorce. There's a lot, a lot that has happened before we have that conversation and it's, yeah, it's, it's a lot, it's tough, it's a tough situation. There are a lot of moving things, pieces and the more that you can lean on some of these very, very simple things. I think when you're in the middle of all of this complexity, just help you feel present and back to yourself and being able to actually think instead of being in that emotional brain are so powerful.
Leah Hadley [00:27:43]:
Really, Carla, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today. We will include links to all of the resources that Carla mentioned in the show notes. Be sure to check those out. I know that if you are a person who is going through a situation with a narcissist that you really do need a good, supportive team in place. And if Carla can be a resource to you, I hope you will consider reaching out to her and certainly learning more about the support that she provides.
Leah Hadley [00:28:14]:
Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope that each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
