Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention. Welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I am so happy that you are here with us today. We have a very special guest, and I am really interested to talk to her about a super important topic. This is Lisa Johnson.
Leah Hadley [00:00:38]:
She's the cofounder of Been There Got Out, a high conflict divorce strategist and certified domestic violence advocate who has successfully represented herself through scores of court appearances. Her case, published in the Connecticut Law Journal, is being used as legal precedent. Her living her excuse me. Her live testimony helped pass Jennifer's Law in Connecticut, the third state in America, to expand its legal definition of domestic violence to include coercive control. She and her partner, Chris, coach people in high conflict relationships, divorce, custody battles, and coparenting hell so they have the chance of the best outcome in family court and beyond. They also offer a weekly legal abuse support group for those dealing with narcissistic opponents in legal matters. Their book, Been There, Got Out, Toxic Relationships, High Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances was released in March of 2023. Their current book on what to do next when your ex tries to turn the kids against you, as well as a comprehensive online program from Fear to Fierce and Family Court is coming out this year.
Leah Hadley [00:01:54]:
So many great resources. Thanks for being here, Lisa.
Lisa Johnson [00:01:57]:
My pleasure, Leah. Thank you.
Leah Hadley [00:02:00]:
It was so fun to connect with Lisa before this because, it turns out we know people in common.
Lisa Johnson [00:02:06]:
I know.
Leah Hadley [00:02:07]:
Such a small world out there. It was kind of funny. But, Lisa, give us just a little background before we really get into it about, like, what are some red flags that might indicate that a divorce or a separation is a high conflict divorce?
Lisa Johnson [00:02:24]:
Yeah. So, you know, at the beginning of any divorce, generally, people are really angry and go at each other. But the difference between a what's called normal divorce and high conflict is with high conflict, one person's anger does not subside. And so even though time passes normal divorce within four to six months on average, people settle down. They're like, oh my gosh, these bills are crazy. We have to start doing what's best for the kids. In our cases, in our clients cases, it these go on for years and years where instead of just moving on with your life, your ex wants to use the legal system to punish you. And so some of the red flags of high conflict are if someone has an active addiction or a mental health issue, they are usually incapable of using any kind of proper judgment.
Lisa Johnson [00:03:15]:
I'm not talking about someone in recovery, obviously, but someone who who, you know, cannot think about the consequences of their actions is very difficult to deal with in the legal system because, again, they're they're not even thinking in their own best interest. They're not thinking about how things are gonna affect their children or their finances. And so that's usually a good indicator of high conflict divorce. Another thing is about money, which we see all the time, and that's when you have a partner who has, either is hiding money or feels that they're entitled to most, if not all of it, which is what we see all the time. Like, what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine too. So when there's hidden assets and someone's not complying with what we call discovery, because everyone who goes through a divorce is entitled to full and transparent discovery of the finances and whatever else you need to to finish it off. That's usually a sign that it's gonna be a tough one. So, yeah, that's just a couple of things to watch out for.
Leah Hadley [00:04:15]:
Great information there. And there I mean, just from being on the sidelines of witnessing some of these high conflict divorces, it just is absolutely heartbreaking. And I think that it's so important for somebody who is is experiencing that to know that there are resources available for them, people who understand. Tell us a little bit, Lisa, about how you work with people.
Lisa Johnson [00:04:41]:
So, you know, we are, like, really niche. We say we're high conflict divorce strategists who specialize in something called legal abuse. So our clients and we have men and women all over the world. We're not geographically limited. They usually find us through, social media or some kind of referral. We have a podcast. We have a YouTube channel. But, I used to be a high school in England, English teacher, and I was a writer.
Lisa Johnson [00:05:05]:
And so I love putting out lots of content. So people usually will find us, and they'll schedule initial what's called discovery call. And then we basically talk about, like, their biggest issue at the moment because these cases are so detailed. And then as we're talking and they're they're together with Chris and I on a Zoom, we'll we'll figure out what we call priorities, like, ways that we can help them moving forward. And there's very specific things that we tend to do. So, strategic communication is the basis of everything I feel. And so that's what we work with more than anything where we teach you how to communicate with your ex where you are writing to them, but you are always very conscious of the invisible audience. And the goal is to present as since most of our cases involve custody, you wanna present as the best co parent ever, but at the same time, you're documenting your ex's patterns of behavior over time, the impact it has on your children and on your relationship with your children.
Lisa Johnson [00:06:01]:
And so, you know, as I said, and as we all know, divorce is very emotional and there's a lot of anger and feelings of injustice. And so one of the big mistakes people make is they kind of pop off in their communication and lawyers get really upset. And then they realize later how they, you know, made a poor impression. So strategic communication is something we do. Presentation is something we we work on together as well, like, how to, be as credible as possible, whether it's to a judge or a custody evaluator to be effective in mediation, that sort of thing. A lot of our clients are pro se, which means representing themselves because they have run out of money. Just like me, that's what I did for seven years. And so how to, basically understand what's called courtroom demeanor, like your position at the court, which is in the bottom.
Lisa Johnson [00:06:51]:
We always think of it as like the wizard of Oz and how to how to operate and be persuasive and effective in terms of putting together an argument. We can't give legal advice, which is fine, but we can give a lot of strategic advice. So that and then there's a few other things that we do. But really, it's about figuring out what the person needs, like doing triage first. And so that's what we do in sessions together. But then you mentioned that we have this weekly legal abuse support group. So for that, we actually do something very unusual in the domestic violence community, and that's that we combine our male and female clients together because we know that abuse is a human issue and not just a gender issue. And since so many of our clients tend to be, like, super smart, well educated, professionals or just, like, really creative, whatever it is, they are great at researching.
Lisa Johnson [00:07:41]:
And so they bring a huge amount of resources to the group. But more than that, they are very kind and empathic. And it's amazing to have, that kind of support, you know, because it helps people heal faster. So in the group, we don't bemoan the broken family court system because I feel it doesn't really help anything or anybody. We basically focus on strategies. And since most of our clients have children, not all of them, we get into, like, how are my kids gonna be okay with a parent like that? And how do I co parent with someone who's really, really difficult and sometimes doesn't care about our kids? And so, that's that's, like, one of our client perks that support group. And then we also do this thing which, everybody loves called free check ins as part of this membership program. We say once we teach you strategic communication, we put you on what's called the permission slip plan because my master's is in education.
Lisa Johnson [00:08:31]:
Everything has an educational metaphor. We'll say, like, you can send us a draft of what you think you wanna say, and then you have to wait for us to check it. We will proofread and edit it for you because we want you to have clean hands and the record to be clean, and we're always very conscious of that invisible audience. And then you start learning how to do it yourself because that is such important documentation for the case. So people also they they feel like, okay. I don't have the burden of, like, wondering if I'm doing the right thing. And at the same time, we say if you're just freaking out about something instead of spending the average of $95 to ask an attorney because a lot of times are I was, you know, I did this mistake myself. We tend to rely on our attorney for everything, but most of those questions are not legal.
Lisa Johnson [00:09:15]:
So we'll say just send us an email that takes a few minutes or less. We'll write you back and calm you down and talk you off the ledge. You can kind of go on with your day with a little more clarity. And if you do need to talk to a lawyer, we'll say this is too technical, ask your lawyer. So that's that's the general way we work with people and now with the, from Fear to Fears and Family Court, we just released our first course, which is called it's on strategic communication. It's called how to communicate with your ex without destroying your case or losing your mind. And so that's like a really deep dive into everything with strategic communication that we usually don't have time to get into unless someone spends a lot of time with us in sessions that we're like, you can you can do that on your own if you want or we could walk you through. But it really gets into, like, the psychology of how these people behave, what to expect, our method, which is called Frac, and and a lot more.
Lisa Johnson [00:10:08]:
And then there's exercises you can do. So but that's the general, things that we do so far with our clients.
Leah Hadley [00:10:15]:
That sounds like a phenomenal resource, and I'm excited to hear that that is out there. We'll be sure to include links in the show notes so people can, find out more information about that for sure. Can you tell me a little bit about what post separation legal abuse looks like?
Lisa Johnson [00:10:32]:
Yeah. I mean, I had no idea what legal abuse was. I didn't even know what narcissism was. I didn't know what legal abuse was. And in I think it must have been, like, maybe just, like, a little more than four years ago, I found the term buried in a 2015 judge's manual because my life was spent in court, like, in in seven years of, representing myself. That doesn't include the ten years in family court. I was in court all the time because my ex wouldn't comply with our court order, actually our agreement. And, and so people are always like, you're still in court.
Lisa Johnson [00:11:09]:
You're still like, are you divorced? I'm like, I am divorced, but my ex is not listening to what he agreed to do. And so I have to go back and enforce it. So legal abuse is basically when somebody is using the legal system to control, harass, intimidate, coerce, or impoverish another person. And there's different ways that that happens. So I I mentioned my situation where my ex didn't follow the agreements. The burden was on me to keep going back to court to try to get enforcement on those orders, and it took a really long time because it was so complex. And one of the things my ex and his attorney did was create confusion where none existed in an attempt to wear me down and and bleed me dry financially, which is what all of our client taxes try to do, because it's so expensive to to keep going back to court. The other type of legal abuse is what's called, frivolous or vexatious litigation.
Lisa Johnson [00:12:04]:
And that's something we see all the time too where our clients' exes or your your ex will file motion after motion. And a lot of them have no merit to them, but you're forced to keep going back to court to respond, which costs money to pay an attorney and money, that you lose from not being able to work. There's a tremendous cost to your, mental and physical health with being stuck in this in this system that takes forever, you know, and all kinds of injustices along the way. So there's a huge cost to legal abuse, and it can consume a person's life. I mean, every single day, I I talk about the feelings that I had, which a lot of our clients have, which is a sense of rage. Like, why do I have to keep going through this? I thought I got out of the relationship, and now it's even worse. A sense of injustice of, like, how can this be happening? Like, the very system that I turn to for for relief is making things even worse and a sense of despair. Like, this is never gonna end.
Lisa Johnson [00:13:05]:
You know? Is this gonna be the rest of my life? And my ex keeps getting away with things, and they keep believing them, and they don't enforce anything. So it's a really terrible way to live. But I always tell people who are like, oh my god. You're in it for ten years. Like, I can't do it. We're like, you can do it, but you need tremendous support along the way because there's amazing opportunities in that experience that I never realized. And I always say I got my best education in the trenches. I was trained, you know, my like I said, my master's is in education.
Lisa Johnson [00:13:34]:
I was a high school English teacher. I taught English as a second language. And now I can use all of those skills to teach globally and do the thing, you know, that I love more than anything, which is which is helping people get out of these awful situations.
Leah Hadley [00:13:51]:
So why doesn't an abusive person who is getting separated or divorced just move on?
Lisa Johnson [00:13:59]:
Okay. So that's the thing that comes up all the time. And unfortunately, our friends and family are like, why don't why doesn't he or she just do this? Like, why, you know, why are they behaving this way? So when you're dealing with someone who's got, let's say, some kind of personality disorder, some kind of mental issue, it's it's different. It's a different kind of break breakup. So when a relationship ends, like I said, most people, you know, they are upset for a while and then they wanna move on with their lives. But for someone with that kind of issue, this mental issue, they feel a tremendous sense of abandonment and it doesn't matter whose fault it was. It's there's still this sense of abandonment. And so that turns into this rage that and they because they don't want to deal with like the uncomfortable feelings of being abandoned or failure as a spouse.
Lisa Johnson [00:14:48]:
And so they get really, really angry, and they do this kind of splitting thing where they become the victim and you're the villain. And they can't it's almost like they have to prove to everybody, including your children, that they did nothing wrong, and you're you're the devil. And so everything turns into this campaign of trying to destroy you and punish you to make themselves feel like they're still okay as a human being. So these are the cases that go on for years where, like, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars is spent, and everyone is shaking their heads going, why doesn't you know, how could this be happening? Like, don't they care? And why don't they? It's not about the money. It's about punishing. It's about that anger. And so that's why the anger doesn't subside. And even when they get a new partner, they're still gonna terrorize you.
Leah Hadley [00:15:37]:
Mhmm. Sometimes even worse, quite frankly.
Lisa Johnson [00:15:40]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:15:42]:
I think that's helpful now to really understand where that person is coming from and and why these things do extend so long. What are some ways, Lisa, that our audience can protect themselves financially and emotionally when they are involved in the court system with somebody who does have a personality disorder?
Lisa Johnson [00:16:04]:
Yeah. So, well, one book that I highly recommend, I actually got to interview the author last night. His name is Bill Eddy, and the book is called Splitting. And it talks about divorcing one of these types of personalities and how different it is from normal divorce. That book was pivotal in my partner's divorce. Mine was done at that point. We were betting because mine was a year and my partner took three years. But, but anyway, that was, like, really helpful to understand, like, how it's gonna be different.
Lisa Johnson [00:16:33]:
So that's that's something we recommend to people at any stage just so you realize, like, oh, okay. Like, this is what's going on. But secondly, one of the things we help people with is something called taking strategic oversight of your case and understanding that divorce is a huge money making industry. And that in your prior relationship with your ex, in a lot of ways, you lost your authority and you lost your power. And so you have to be conscious not to repeat that same dynamic when you hire an attorney where your ex had all the authority. A lot of times people come out and they think, alright. Now I'm gonna pay an attorney $25,000 dollars and I'm gonna save my life, and I'm not gonna pay attention. And so the thing that we wanna focus on is getting you to the point where you say, you know what? I have to run this case like a business.
Lisa Johnson [00:17:22]:
I have to be more collaborative. I have to understand what's going on, and I have to stop letting other people make choices for me because the only people that are gonna be affected are myself and my children. The lawyer is gonna get paid and walk away, and I have to deal with the consequences. So I have to know what every motion means. I have to understand every document that I'm signing. I can't just trust that the other person is doing things in my best interest. And so really staying on top of things is very, very important. And it is always important to get, like, other professionals to help you.
Lisa Johnson [00:17:53]:
So like I said, instead of using your attorney like a therapist to understand that there's high conflict divorce strategist or therapists or financial advisors, like people that can help instead of always thinking your lawyer is the one to take care of everything. That's the mistake a lot of people make. I did too. That's where a lot of money gets wasted. But a lawyer is such a significant part of a divorce. I said I was I represented myself for seven years. That was what was called post judgment. And I would never recommend that someone ever try to get a divorce without having an attorney because that's the foundation of your case, and it has to be done the right way.
Lisa Johnson [00:18:32]:
And when you go and represent yourself at the beginning, you don't really know what you're doing, and everything has to be decided. So you really need to hire not just a good attorney, but the right attorney. And so Chris and I belong to something called The Amicable Divorce Network. We focus on fair billing practices and child centered divorce among other things. And so you wanna look for professionals to help you with this process who are what's called positive advocates. So the opposite is a negative advocate, like someone who's like a pit bull attorney who's like, let's go to litigate. Let's go to court. Like, you know, who just, like, adds fuel to the flames and the conflict because that's gonna trickle down onto your children, and that's gonna hurt your family in the long run.
Lisa Johnson [00:19:16]:
So you wanna find a positive advocate, lawyers, financial professionals, whoever, who are like, this is what it is, and this is how we can best work within it with the goal of reducing the level of conflict as much as possible. So one of my favorite questions to ask an attorney when I meet them for the first time, and luckily I'm not going through this anymore so I don't have to. So we tell our clients to is during a consult after you, you know, you've shared the basic information to say, how would you handle a case like mine? Because when you ask this question, first, you get to see if the lawyer really paid attention to what you were saying. Because in our world, in our community, like, these cases are very different from normal divorce. So the second thing is you get to see what kind of strategy, if any, the lawyer has to deal with someone who is going to drag this process out. How do they deal with someone who's gonna try to burn through their hours and spend your money? So, again, like, you really wanna make sure that you start with having the right attorney, and you have a team of support, including other professionals that can help you get through this as painlessly as possible. And then the emotional support stuff, that's the kind of thing Chris and I do where you're you're surrounded by people who totally get it. That you're not saying, well, I know it sounds crazy, but, like, everyone's like, no.
Lisa Johnson [00:20:34]:
No. No. No. Like, I'll up you. Yeah. So that's what I would recommend.
Leah Hadley [00:20:40]:
Lisa, you have provided so many fantastic tips, so much good information for our listeners. I will reiterate what Lisa said about Bill Addy's work. I did a book review of that particular book, so I'll include a link, to that review. But it's it's a great, great resource for people who are going through these high conflict situations. I know you have a free resource that you wanted to share with our listeners. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Lisa Johnson [00:21:08]:
So, we have something we have a few, but the one I'm thinking probably would be most helpful for your listeners is we have, like, a like, a PDF thing they can download. It has all kinds of things about, I think it's, like, 18 legal abuse prevention tips. So you can you can look at that, and it gives you more than what I just said today in terms of, like, not just court stuff, but how to approach mediation, how to, save yourself some money instead of have your lawyer answer every single one of your x or their attorneys annoying emails. Yeah. So so we'll have the link in, I guess, the show notes.
Leah Hadley [00:21:41]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Terrific. And, Lisa, where can people find out more about you?
Lisa Johnson [00:21:45]:
Oh, super easy. If you just type in Been There, Got O ut, you can find us everywhere. We have a website, www.beentheregotout.com. Our book, I'll hold it up. The first book on Amazon, just type in Been There, Got Out book. We're on Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, all over the place. Just type Been There, Got Out, and you'll find us. And we're very easy to reach, [email protected] or [email protected].
Leah Hadley [00:22:12]:
Fantastic. Again, Lisa, I so appreciate you being here with us today and sharing so much wisdom with our audience. I know the people who are going through these difficult divorces, Just knowing they're not alone, I think, is huge. And so I really appreciate you taking the time.
Lisa Johnson [00:22:28]:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Leah Hadley [00:22:31]:
For our listeners, thank you for being with us today, and we will see you next week. Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
