Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce finance and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention. Hi there and welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I am so happy that you are here with us today. We have a wonderful guest. This is Dr.
Leah Hadley [00:00:34]:
Susan Korb Bernstein. She is an experienced certified divorce coach and certified high conflict divorce coach. We're going to get all into what high conflict divorce is today so she can help you understand that. She teaches the mastermind course for divorce coaches and is an instructor for the High Conflict Divorce certification program. Susan is also a leader of the national association of Divorce Professionals. And prior to becoming a certified divorce coach, she earned her doctorate in education leadership and was a school teacher and administrator. Her studies and focus have always been on what is best for the children. Welcome.
Leah Hadley [00:01:13]:
Thank you so much for being here.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:01:15]:
Thank you for having me, Leah.
Leah Hadley [00:01:17]:
Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. So you went from education to divorce coaching. I'm just curious. Tell me how that happened.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:01:27]:
Yes. So as, as, as your audience heard, I was an educator 20 years, and then when I went through my own divorce, which was high conflicts, so custody battles, hidden money, domestic abuse, and involving my three young children, my oldest who had severe special needs, which adds a lot of complications to divorce, I said, why is this happening to me? And I could have stayed under the covers, but I had an epiphany and I said, maybe so I can help others. So I went. I switched from education consultant to divorce consultant. Two years into that, I heard about the certified divorce coach program, now have six divorce coaching certificates. That's all I do is the divorce coaching. And I teach for two of the national international programs. So my love of coaching and teaching together and really making a difference for individuals getting divorced, but also for their children, helping people get unstuck and to that better chapter that they want and deserve.
Leah Hadley [00:02:28]:
That's fantastic. And especially, you know, you used your own really challenging time in your life to be such a gift to people going forward. That's so beautiful. Now, I know a lot of people, Susan, think they have a high conflict divorce because, you know, obviously there's conflict in divorce. But what is it specifically when you're talking about high conflict divorce, what does that really mean?
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:02:53]:
Absolutely. So, you know, what I say is obviously the ideal situation is you can sit with a mediator in a handful of sessions, come up with an memorandum of understanding for custody for finance, sign it, put it in a drawer, and move forward to a happy, a happy future. But when you're divorcing a high conflict individual, and it often only takes one spouse to make it coupled as that couple is, high conflict is when you can't mediate, so, so you need to litigate. Right. And so one reason you can't mediate is if there's a restraining order or you feel threatened from the spouse across the table from you. Mediation, as you know, takes a handful of sessions, litigation, 10 to 18 months or more, depending on where you are in the country. So right there, more time, more money, everything's escalated. Another reason why mediation doesn't work, that makes it high conflict is if someone is hiding money.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:03:53]:
Often it's someone who has a cash business or owns a business. And mediation requires both spouses to disclose what's financially there. And if one isn't doing that, a mediator can't order someone to do it, so they need to go to the judge. So right there, the hidden money concept and then the custody battle. If someone goes in and says, I don't want my ex to have an equal amount of parenting time, whether it's, you know, 30, 70, or 0% and X, anything can happen. If the ex says, okay, I'll just take the children 30%, it's not a custody battle. Custody battle occurs when one party says, I don't want you to have them 50% and the other one says, absolutely. And a mediator cannot force someone.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:04:40]:
So again, they end up in court. And often, besides having a judge, there's third parties. There is a forensic accountant, there's. There could be a certified divorce financial analyst, there could be a forensic psychologist, an attorney for the child assigned. So all these additional parties, and it makes it a high conflict because it's long, it's dragged out. There's safety issues, there's financial issues, and there's issues with the thought process of where the children will land.
Leah Hadley [00:05:11]:
Yeah, that's really helpful for people to understand. And I know for some people, you know, they know their partner, obviously they've been with their partner for some period of time and most likely know how their partner is going to react to the potential of going through a divorce and might really be scared of that reaction. Right. That they, they know that's a toxic person. What should someone in that kind of preparation stage do, really, to prepare for divorce, to, to minimize the conflict?
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:05:47]:
Absolutely. Such a great question. And you know, one thing, a divorce Coach does a certified divorce coach is they help individuals pre, during or post divorce. And the ideal time is to start pre divorce. Right. Post divorce you're swimming upstream, so it's harder. But pre divorce, if you think that your ex has an anger issue or a mental health issue or an addiction, if they're unstable or toxic in any way, you. You don't say, I'm going to divorce you.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:06:12]:
You get your ducks in order first. Right. You try to get copies of any financial statements, whether it's in the file cabinets or check the mail or check online. Right. You try to get as much information as you can. You also try to set your children up for success. Maybe making sure that the pediatrician or the teacher or guidance counselor knows that there's a safety concern, maybe trying to get the children, if they're young, play therapy or older, a therapist. Right.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:06:40]:
Because judges are not going to listen to your best friend or your neighbor or your coworker. They're going to listen to the professionals. So getting professionals on board, how it's high conflict and knowing that you are getting as much financial information as you can now because likely that person will either try to move something around or make it difficult for you to get.
Leah Hadley [00:07:01]:
Yeah, that's a really good point. I see that quite frequently, especially when somebody is blindsided by a high conflict person and they don't have that time to prepare. A lot of times accessing just basic information becomes a legal battle, unfortunately.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:07:16]:
Absolutely. Sadly and often in divorce, one person initiates and the other's blindsided. And that's also where the emotions come in. Right. Especially if it's a long divorce or you didn't see coming. Certainly no one on their wedding day has a crystal ball knowing divorces is going to happen. But when you are served with divorce papers or you think everything is status quo, or for some people, they actually think everything's good and they truly didn't see it coming. It can be really hard to then switch your mindset to say, okay, I need to accept what's going on.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:07:52]:
I need to think of this as a business matter. I need to realize that some of these things are permanent. Yes. Custody, you can always go back and modify parenting time or decision making, but splitting your assets and debt is normally a one and done. Right. And so really being able to mentally prepare for changes that could affect long term future.
Leah Hadley [00:08:16]:
Yeah, absolutely. We talk with clients a lot about looking at the finances specifically through that long, long term lens because it's so easy when you're sitting in the discomfort of divorce to be very focused on the near term and just trying to be as comfortable as you can be in that discomfort. But sometimes that makes sense, leads people to making financial decisions that might not be in their best interest.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:08:41]:
Absolutely. I know the home is an emotional aspect for many, many people and it's often the largest asset and then the second largest asset often is someone's pension. And why should I have to share that? Well, they had the option to divorce earlier. They had the option to do a prenup or in some states a postnup or a mid marriage agreement. But it really shocks people when they think, well, it wasn't commingled or it wasn't in my name. Well, guess what, the state has certain laws that you can't go around. Right?
Leah Hadley [00:09:11]:
Right, Absolutely.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:09:13]:
Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:09:13]:
So there is so much talk nowadays about handling or dealing with narcissistic behavior and divorce. And I'm curious to know, are there any extra details that you encourage people to put in their agreement when they are divorcing one of these individuals?
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:09:33]:
Absolutely. So, you know, often someone will say to me, oh well, this attorney can do it for less or hey, I signed my divorce agreement. And I look at it and it's what I call a skeleton agreement. It does not have a lot of details. And that might be okay in an amicable divorce, which I'm still don't think it's okay. But it's never going to fly in a divorce with a narcissist. Right. So when you're divorcing a narcissist, the details are the key.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:10:01]:
Along with. So details meaning not just dad will have the children every other weekend, who's picking them up on a Friday, Are they bringing back Sunday or Monday, dropping them at school, Are they having dinner Sunday night with mom or dad when they drop off? Right. Like all the details so that everything is in place so that you can enforce it. Also details related to obviously payment. Payment will be made on this date of the month for support. If it's not, interest will accrue. If it goes longer than X number of days, that person can give a default letter. If they don't follow through, they can take it to court and if the other person's in default, they can ask for actual, actual, actual legal fees, not reasonable legal fees to enforce it.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:10:50]:
So many times you hear people saying, well, they didn't pay me money, but by the time I hire a lawyer, it's an even wash if you're going to get actual legal fees back. So having financial consequences if they're in default and making it very clear, here's the Zelle account you send it to, here's where you wire it, here's what you write a certified checkout to, right? Like so that it's very clear if they're in default that a judge will easily say it was spelled out. There's no confusion. And here's the consequences. So knowing that a narcissist needs consequences also you don't want that skeleton contract. Otherwise they will find loopholes and loopholes are not good for the person who is trying to co parent with a narcissist. Ideally, if you don't have children together, you gray rock them. You never have to interact again.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:11:42]:
If you have children, it's what's called yellow rock where you interact in a business like way only talking about the children. You know when to respond, how to respond, use a parenting app so you're not texting and emailing and things aren't all over the place. Everything's in one place and really trying to limit them. Gaslighting, limit them manipulating you and really what I call profiling your narcissist. So everyone, it's a key term. Everyone says, oh, my ex is a narcissist. But I tell everyone, write down the worst things that your ex did over the last 18 months. Right? We don't need something from six years ago because you could have divorced them then, right? 18 months.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:12:24]:
And then circle the three to five worst. And that's what you're going to focus on when you're telling your attorney or your mediator or the judge. Here's why I think this person is above and beyond, right? And when they hear those three to five examples, you don't need to say narcissist. They're going to have their mouth drop open and say, wow, I, I can't believe the baby almost drowned in the bathtub because they were drinking and forgot to stop the water running. I can't believe they let the child with special needs run across the street in this city. Right. Like so instead of saying they're narcissists and they're selfish and they're not thinking about their children, you're documenting it.
Leah Hadley [00:13:00]:
So many good points that you made there. I'll just reiterate one thing you said when you first started talking about the skeleton agreement. Even for those in an amicable divorce situation, so many of them start amicable. But then something happens. Somebody gets angry, somebody gets frustrated, whatever it is. And suddenly, boy do we wish we had those details in there. So I absolutely agree that regardless of your situation, the more you can communicate and have those details identified so that there's less communication required in the future, the better off everybody's going to be. Right?
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:13:38]:
Absolutely. And I know, you know, some people want to save money and say, yeah, they can do it, but when you do it like that, you're getting that agreement that just a cut and paste and it's nothing specific about your things and there's no consequences, and you're gonna, you're really gonna have post divorce issues. And it's much harder. Some people actually, their relationship is harder with their ex post divorce than it was during marriage. So you want to safeguard yourself. Right. You want to do it right the first time. And that's something that a certified divorce coach can help with.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:14:09]:
And certainly a certified divorce financial analyst is key as well. I believe in the team approach. Right. Attorneys and mediators will say they're not financial experts. Well, why wouldn't you then from day one start talking to a financial expert also? Right. So the emotional aspect, the financial aspect, and the legal aspect, that's the success you need to navigate it and then to be in a happier chapter down the road. Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:14:35]:
And I will say, you know, a lot of times people hear that kind of team approach and they're like overwhelmed by the thought of paying multiple professionals. But it sounds to me like when somebody is strategizing with you, even that simple exercise you described of looking back over the last 18 months and identifying those specific scenarios to communicate with their attorney, that is saving them a tremendous amount on legal fees rather than sitting there and going through the last six years with their attorney.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:15:05]:
Right.
Leah Hadley [00:15:05]:
So getting them really targeted and strategic working with a divorce coach is going to be much more reasonable cost than doing that exercise with their attorney.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:15:14]:
I say that all the time because it is, oh, two professionals. But really, most coaches are half the price of an attorney. Right. I know I am. And when you do the thinking work, you gain clarity. So I use a, use a football analogy. They do the thinking work with me. They go into their attorney or mediator, and it's like they're the football coach and they ask the attorney or mediator to execute it legally.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:15:39]:
Right. So they help guide it. And our conversations are also very realistic. If someone says, I want to keep the house, the pension, and the children, the answer is that is unlikely to happen unless you're giving up spousal support, child support. Unless your ex doesn't want the children or they're a criminal. Right. Like so, so really, the radical acceptance of helping them know, here's what will happen if you go to court and the judge decides. And then here's the leverage you have in between.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:16:09]:
Right? So almost all 50 states make both parents contribute at least a pro rata shared health insurance. So if you're mediating with someone and they say, I'm not paying a penny for health insurance, but you know that your state will require one of the parents to contribute for that, then you say, fine, I'll see you in court, because I know the judge will do it. If you say, and mediation, well, I want you to pay for their sweet 16 and a new car. You don't walk away from mediation because no judge in this country is going to order someone to pay for a sweet 16 or a car for them. So you have to know what the judge would do and then what wiggle room you can have. Whether it's mediation or negotiations with the attorneys, only 3% of cases go to trial. Only 1% end in trial. So likely you're negotiating or your attorney's negotiating anyway.
Leah Hadley [00:16:58]:
Yeah, that's a good point. Now, I know with a lot of these high conflict divorces, really, the kids are put in the middle. How do you protect children in a high conflict divorce?
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:17:09]:
So I think communication is key. From age 2 all the way to 22. I encourage parents today to say to each child, if they have multiple alone, whether they're tucking them in or driving them somewhere, when they have the child alone, is there anything you want to ask them? Me? Is there anything you want to tell me? Those two questions, right? It's not about what did dad say or what happened when you were at mom's house. It's general communication. And what will happen is initially the children will say, I want to go to Disney. I want a new bike or a new video. It's very materialistic. But then once they know how much you care and that they can ask you and tell you things, they'll say, why did mom say that you're taking all the money? Why did dad say that you're not letting us see Papa and Grandma, Right? Like, they'll start to express questions.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:17:58]:
And that's where you can help enlighten them so they're not gaslighted, they're not manipulated. They don't feel like they're in between. They don't feel like you're pressuring them to say what happened. You're just saying, is there anything you want to ask me? Is there anything you want to tell me? And it will certainly come out. Then of course, there's always that play therapy or talk therapy if the children don't want to do that, because a lot of teens and preteens don't. Water therapy, art therapy, equestrian therapy. Right. Music therapy, just giving them an outlet because it is stressful.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:18:31]:
So the lines of communication, giving them a third party. And my final tip of advice is traditions, right? Children like structure. So when you tell them we're getting divorced, we're going to be in two different, under two different roofs, you let them know, hey, we're still going to have the Easter egg hunt that we have every year and invite your friends. But guess what? Yes, some of the traditions we're going to keep, but we're going to start some new traditions every Sunday that you're a mom's. We're going to have breakfast in bed or we're going to have ice cream for breakfast or we're going to have make your own pizza. And then labeling them. So another thing that you can do is bonding with them through time. These are things that don't cost money.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:19:10]:
But you label traditions, you know, the first of every month, we're going to do this together or hey, we're going to have joke of the day. Whenever you're at Dad's, you're going to FaceTime me for 10 minutes. I'm going to have the joke of the day ready. So just giving them that love and reassurance and comfort of structure and traditions that are ongoing.
Leah Hadley [00:19:30]:
So many great practical tips there. I feel like I almost want to like go back and listen to that again because there were just so many things that I would like to write down. That was fantastic. I really appreciate, appreciate it. Just one last question for you, Susan. You had mentioned before some of the post divorce issues that you see, and I'm wondering what people can do to kind of prevent or minimize some of that post divorce abuse.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:19:54]:
Yeah. So I think documentation is key, right? Like using a parenting app to document it. Because if you just have it on email or text, the judge could say, well, you changed the date or timestamp or we can't prove that they didn't read it or read it. So documentation using a parenting app is key post divorce. I think also mindset is key, right. Knowing what you can control. We can't control our kids or our ex. We can't control situations, but we can control our response.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:20:22]:
And I'm very realistic. Obviously, many people's ex, especially if it's high conflict, will try to trigger them. Post divorce abuse. Is real. That is a thing. So acknowledging if you are being abused post divorce, but setting those boundaries, if you have children together, the reality is you have to interact, right? There's co parenting, but there's also parallel parenting. So I talk about there's two battles, right? You want the judge to think you're co parenting, but in reality you're parallel parenting. But you want to document tomorrow's picture day.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:20:52]:
Order pictures. Here's the link. If you want to order pictures, right, like you kind of don't want them to say that you're alienating the children or you're withholding, holding information and then knowing if life is a pizza pie, giving the father of your children or the mother of your children, right? Because both, both could be the high conflict individual, Only one slice, not letting it overflow. You're going to have new relationships, your job, your friends, your extended family, your children, your alone time, your hobbies and, and saying they will be allowed one slice of pizza and telling yourself, I don't like people to like, regress their feelings. So not to say, never think about it, but I say, when you take out your trash, my garbage day is Tuesdays and Fridays. I don't go back and look at the trash. Your ex, think of them as trash. Don't follow them on social media, don't drive by their new place and don't let them know they're triggering you.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:21:47]:
So yes, they're going to trigger you, but walk away. Go to the bathroom, say, oh, I'm sorry, the phone died, I lost the connection. Right? Don't let them know. And you know, I help my clients. I give them canned responses that are court appropriate, how to respond and when to respond. And then giving yourself a little grace, saying, only going to think about my ex in the morning when I brush my teeth and at night when I brush my teeth. And anytime I think about my ex during the day, I'm going to put that thought in my pocket, say, I'm not letting them ruin my day. I'll think about that when I brush my teeth.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:22:20]:
So not repressing it, but not letting them consume your life.
Leah Hadley [00:22:25]:
That's really good advice, regardless of if it's your extra something else going on. I like that better. Yes. Well, Susan, I really appreciate all your insight and the practical tips you've shared with us. I'm sure many in our audience are going to want to learn more about you. Where can they find you online?
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:22:44]:
So I give everyone my number. The 551-444-2609. Everyone gets a free 30 minute consult and then my website is www.divorcecoachplus.com and I will share with people because I do have the special needs child and my doctorate in education and special needs. Myself and one of my colleagues, Marianne Hughes from Texas have created a divorce with special needs website. So it's www.divorcewithspecialneedschildren.com. half the country gets divorced but 80% of people who have a special needs child get divorced. So it's a high percent who need people who get it and we get it and we're forming a community for those people as well.
Leah Hadley [00:23:29]:
That's an amazing resource and I'm so excited to hear about that. We will be sure to include that in the show notes so that people can find the website and I think we're going to have her on also to talk a little bit about divorce and special needs. So I think that's going to be really a great, great show as well. Susan, thank you again for your time and your information to our audience. Thanks for being with us and we'll see you next week.
Susan Korb Bernstein [00:23:54]:
Thank you so much.
Leah Hadley [00:23:56]:
Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help us others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
