Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention. Hi there, and welcome back to intentional divorce insights. We are so happy that you are here. We have a fantastic guest with us today. This is Charles Jamieson, who has been in the industry for a very long time.
Leah Hadley [00:00:38]:
I'm gonna let him share a little bit of about his background, but we've included his bio, which is very impressive below in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. Charles, welcome, and thank you for being here with us.
Charles Jamieson [00:00:49]:
Leah, thank you so much for the pleasure and privilege of being here. If you're looking a little bit about my background, I've been practicing divorce work primarily for about 40 years. My office is located in the state of Florida. I'm board certified by the Florida Bar as an expert in marital and family law matters. Of the over a 100,000 lawyers in the state of Florida, less than 1% are board certified in any category. So it indicates our level of expertise. In my firm, we have we believe in a team concept. I have 4 or 5 attorneys here of various levels of experience.
Charles Jamieson [00:01:22]:
We basically take on any kind of case, children related issues, property related issues if they're complex or there's a kink in there as I like to say. We're there to unravel it, you know, iron out the kinks.
Leah Hadley [00:01:36]:
Fantastic. Well, I'm glad you're here with us. We're diving into a really interesting topic. I really like this topic a lot. It's things your divorce attorney may not tell you, but they should. What's one thing that your divorce attorney might not tell you what they should?
Charles Jamieson [00:01:51]:
Well, what they should be doing is having a goals or what I call divorce mission statement set up immediately in your case. We know from scientific studies that people who set goals for themselves are far more successful in their lives in obtaining what they want than people who don't. And what a divorce mission statement is calls upon your best self to sit down and try to imagine what your divorce process could be looked like looked like, and what your process with your children and with each other will look like after. And so how do you get one of take put one of those together? Sit down and think about your past successes. Think down and think about your children. How do you want them to look like? I'd like to read to you a sample of a divorce mission statement that a couple has done.
Leah Hadley [00:02:33]:
Fantastic.
Charles Jamieson [00:02:34]:
A couple, they're an individual can do this also. Okay. It was a particularly good one. So after you don't mind, then this is how it goes. As we transition into our new lives, we will commit to each other the following. That both of us are financially comfortable as we move forward now and in the future. We'll be respectful to each other and those who come to in each other's lives. We want a relationship so that we can choose to spend holiday vacations together even if that includes other.
Charles Jamieson [00:03:01]:
We want our children to feel loved, never feel that they are caught up in the middle and have to choose between the 2 of us. We want our children to feel that they will always be a family. We want our children to be able to communicate with both of us, not be concerned that they will hurt the other parents clearly. We want to always speak positively about each other. We want to communicate often with each other regarding what's going on in our children's lives, keeping each other up to date on what the children have communicated with each of us. They're both committed to our children's college education, and then obtaining their education debt free to the best of our ability. And that is more of a child oriented one because children factor prominently in these these people's lives. They wanted to make sure that at the end of their divorce, they were not going to be attending the children's significant events, graduations, the births, marriages, and have 2 parties or 2 families sitting on each side of the aisle looking glaring at each other and at war with them.
Leah Hadley [00:03:56]:
That's wonderful
Charles Jamieson [00:03:58]:
now some people will say that believe me. I'm not a kumbaya. Let's get around the gunfire and hold hands. This is not a kumbaya kind of deal. This is because if you have something like this, then you have a a a guide. Mhmm. What a guide does, just like a good attorney does, it tries to be a good therapist or a good financial adviser does, is guide you through this mess you're in. As we were meant talking about before, most divorced couples are in chaos.
Leah Hadley [00:04:27]:
Right.
Charles Jamieson [00:04:27]:
They don't know what their future is going to be like, they don't know what tomorrow is going to be like, and generally one spouse is way ahead of the other in terms of where they are in getting a divorce and acceptance of that issue. So given all that chaos, to have a guiding statement that one can refer back to is immense it brings immense dividends. When we have situations like mediations or if we're in a cooperative or collaborative divorce, we have a series of meetings together, I make sure that this statement is read at the beginning of each meeting because it orients in the parties to the goal. So again, that's the first thing. Most attorneys don't tell their clients. They may not even be aware of it. I mean, we're busy, obviously professionals, this takes some time, and we have to convince our clients of the utility.
Leah Hadley [00:05:12]:
But I like how you also proactively return to the statement over and over again to really anchor the process in the mission that they they've created for themselves. Because I can see how, you know, at the beginning of the process, you could sit down and come up with something, and it'd be forgotten halfway through when things get tense and, you know, all of that. And so, that's fantastic.
Charles Jamieson [00:05:38]:
Now another thing I think second thing I think is critical that a lot of attorneys don't do with their clients is prioritize your goals. Often a lot of people will come to you, they'll come to me and they'll say, I want everything, or I want this thing, this thing, this thing, this thing, and when you add up all the things you want, that doesn't leave much left on the other side. Well, we all know all goals are not equal equally weighted by the courts or by each party. At the beginning of the divorce, it may change by the end of the court. But I'm an attorney. Each party has limited resource. This list of goals prioritizes for me why it puts your my time and your money to effect to obtain what you want.
Charles Jamieson [00:06:18]:
It's also important for you to say, how did I do? My position is if you win your first primary goal and don't win anything else, you're a winner. But also, if you win 2 to 10 and you didn't win 1, you may still be a winner. Right. Can't tell you how many times people come to me after their divorce is over, ask me to look things over and say, and I ask them, so how did you think you did? And they say, I don't know. Well, how can that be if they don't have the goal? Right. Again, important. A third thing I think is important is that most people come and if they're hurt and injured emotionally, physically, or whatever financially, whatever way they may be feeling hurt, they want their day in court or they want someone to hear this story, give them vindication. Well, unfortunately, most people don't realize that you're probably not gonna get your day in court.
Charles Jamieson [00:07:08]:
Why is that? Because 90 to 95% of all divorce case settle, and they settle because eventually time and emotional resources get expended. So by the time you're at that final hearing, you don't have you don't wanna invest the money or the emotional resource, so you don't have them to invest to get you to a final hearing. So you're probably not gonna get to a final hearing. So if you're going to likely settle your case, then set up your settlement conferences or mediations just like you've been going for trial. In other words, don't wing it. Get ready. Be prepared. Have your goal lift.
Charles Jamieson [00:07:41]:
What if do you have the paperwork do you need? Have you had your financial advisers or forensic accountant sit down to here to tell you what's the financial vibe here. Is are there sufficient needs just for ammo? You have the fish sufficient funds or assets to pay out. Don't be don't be coming into remediation unprepared. Mhmm. Again, if you're that's gonna save you money because if you don't settle your case and you settle on the 4 l steps of food, which we do show a month later, you're wasting time and money. Right. Time and money would would be upgraded. Then the contradictory is if you get your day in court, you may not want it.
Charles Jamieson [00:08:20]:
Why not? Because don't forget what you wish for because you may not want. Why do I stay there? Because the peoples have this misconception about what happens in divorce court. They think that they're gonna walk into court and and the judge is gonna have the time and patience to go from day 1 in your relationship all the way through to the bitter end. Then the judge is gonna take all that information, Gonna he or she's gonna retire the chambers, and they're gonna painstakingly, you know, through their blood and gusts up late at night, handcraft with laser precision, final judgment that will solve it. Correct. And you're you're that doesn't happen. Courtrooms are over congested, court dockets are overcrowded, judges don't have enough time, so they're making decisions like this, almost stereotypically impression. They're not gonna see the whole real or whole movie of your character.
Charles Jamieson [00:09:10]:
You're gonna see this frame of photo, this frame of photo, this frame of photo, this one of the photographs. You better hope they're the 1 proper frames of photos because if not, they're gonna get the wrong impression about you and then bad things are gonna happen. I make the best happen, bad decision happen. And the judges amend it. Generally speaking, at some point in time, there's a case management, but the parties will be present, will have what I call a gift, what I call the talk or the speech. That is, I'm going to work hard on your case and do my best. And guess what? I'm going to get it wrong. The reason I'm gonna get it wrong is you 2 know the best and most about your life story and this marriage.
Charles Jamieson [00:09:47]:
You 2 are the ones best equipped to resolve it. I'm not. I'm gonna get it. I have limited time, limited resources. I will do my best, but I will still probably get somewhere. So if the judges admit that and say Right. It's not mine, then they're not just trying to urge them into settlement. They're trying to tell them some reality.
Charles Jamieson [00:10:06]:
They're gonna do their best. I don't know any 4 judges I don't think work hard Family court. They all work. And they all try their best, but they all admit and truthfully that they're gonna eventually get it wrong. Something. So that's those are the she told me they don't want that. Now, your divorce will probably cost more than you want. So that means, what does that mean? More than you realize it will cost.
Charles Jamieson [00:10:32]:
Because professionals cost money. If you have some resources, excuse me, some assets or some income, there's gonna be some dispute about what's child's care. What I'm seeing across the country, and I I've done cases and solved the cases in 12 or 20 states, is that we are giving judges less and less to do. What do I mean by that? Well, their presumptions were the division of of assets and liabilities and there was 50%. That's that's one assumption. Florida recently passed an amendment to its time sharing statute. We use a presumption of 5050 timeshare. It'd be rewired, but we're starting off with that presumption.
Charles Jamieson [00:11:08]:
So we're giving judges less and less to do because they have less and less to do. We're fighting over smaller and smaller issue, but the fights are. For instance, we can't formalize what child support is. We can give you a formula for alimony, but we still have to figure out what this income. That's where the battle lies. Do you know Right. The professional there's many ways one can generate income that doesn't get looked at by the IRS. These are by most most other people.
Charles Jamieson [00:11:31]:
That's income according to the statutes in most states. It's gotta be drilled out or ferreted out, put in put into the income column. That's a danger flag. Maybe some issues about what is this trust or is this an erroneous to the commingle problem? There may be asset testing. There will always be, even if there's presumptions of time sharing, there will always be these issues coming to the kids. But if one of the parents has a drug issue, well, we said we can prove that. It costs money to prove that. It's not like you can walk in, you have these rules of evidence that like a SIP, so that only the best evidence gets through it.
Charles Jamieson [00:12:05]:
Well, it keeps a lot of evidence out of the core. So it's not like you can walk in and tell the whole story by yourself. You have to tell the story to the bits and pieces. Those bits and pieces cost money, you can tell. So how do we try to constrict that money? We try to get people on the settlement track as much as we can. How much are they what are we really fighting about? We have a $2,500,000 estate and the only thing that costs about $200,000 better not be paying a whole lot of money to get this thing sold. Whereas, you know, all the kids issues were were worked out and the income worked out and we're fight fussing over some kotchkes, or souvenirs from trips long ago. What are we doing? And I am a pet lover.
Charles Jamieson [00:12:45]:
I'm a board board of a non kill animal shelter here in New York, Beach County. I don't know how many times people come in and they want to trust the but there's a taste and things where they pass. Yeah. That's most almost every jurisdiction on our property. Now, I would kill me to give up my problem, but I know and I know the emotional attacks. But judges are not gonna tolerate generally speaking, trying to enforce a visitation schedule for an animal because it's property. If you can't someone's gotta own it and it's a good without how you value the love of the pet. I don't know how to do that.
Charles Jamieson [00:13:17]:
There's ways I go about trying to prove what which way Pets should go and generally, I believe it's a dog or a cat, and they just go back and forth with the kid. I mean, whatever it takes, but let's not be fighting about things. Of course, we're going to have this famous story here in Florida just about Kautchke's work. The judge wanted to communicate very clearly where he stood about people fighting about trivial property. He said, okay. You make a little decision. This is middle of the trial. He said, he's, make the list of property that you want.
Charles Jamieson [00:13:46]:
And so the list came up to him and he said, okay. Why? I was gonna there's your property. She got your fill in. That's what she paid. You never had another case like that again.
Leah Hadley [00:13:55]:
Yeah. I bet.
Charles Jamieson [00:13:56]:
But, again, in a brutal way, and it I'm not trying to make light of people's attachment. Right. I can understand it. But the judges don't have a lot of patience for this, particularly if they're dealing with cases where kids are being abused, neglected, and otherwise not being taken care of. You see 2 adults fighting over a small property issue, not, not good. So it's gonna cost more than you want, another one issue is we are not therapists, I'm an attorney. I am not your therapist. I tell all every one of my clients who come in, you are in chaos.
Charles Jamieson [00:14:30]:
You need therapy. And, you know, there is this whole issue about domestic violence, where you don't have to be beaten or threatened with a knife or some other instrument, be in a disparate, power engagement, power level between 2 parts, you could be emotionally abused, you would be otherwise managed or mishandled. It doesn't have to be someone with a personality disorder, or someone who says I belong. But you gotta be aware of the power differential between your client and the other party. The client may not be aware of it. That's why I say you got to get into therapy because the therapist will be able to sort some of those things out for you and make recommendations that you can meet. Because at some juncture, you're gonna have to make difficult decisions. I've got to be sure that you're in proper and position to do so remotely.
Charles Jamieson [00:15:18]:
Secondly, I'm gonna charge far more. Trade's charge far more than that than the health professionals. Absolutely. Alright. That's just the reality. They're they're they've been trained to help people deal with law that comes from a divorce. They've been trained and educated and experienced to help you lead you through that that emotional chaos for all the dips and falls in there. I'm not.
Charles Jamieson [00:15:41]:
I've been trained to lead you through it illegally. We're glad to pick up the phone and talk to all of our clients whenever they need to but when when you pick up the phone that clock is running So your bill gets to be, if you wanna talk, we'll talk. I'll try to remind you that you have limited resources because I don't care whether you are, you know, the top penthouse in New York City or the bottom ghetto department. You have limited amounts of money that you're gonna send. There no one has a number of reports to you. So I need to be mindful of that and try to lead you to that direction. So that's what we do. Another one another thing that they're gonna tell you is that you may have difficulty communicating with your spouse, and sometimes you might not have the person assist you with.
Charles Jamieson [00:16:26]:
But there are other programs out there in the Mayfair event, BIFF, BIFF. BIFF communication program is one that's been developed by Bill Eddy, e d d y. Bill Eddy is an attorney, former social worker, author, he has developed a system called BIFF, which is Brief, formative, friendly, that's true. So it would and gives you examples of the factors in co parenting Look, I'm dealing with the BIF program and I recognize my clients BIF because you can't even use the phone, it gives you examples of provocative emails or texts or messages that you may receive from this call, and the way you can respond to a bit faster because you have to keep my word as a patient. We hear today on many occasions, of the narcissistic personality show. And there's there's types it doesn't show. But whether you're deemed but I I am found, and if you talk to mental health professionals, during a divorce, everyone gets into be a little narcissistic. Eventually at some point in time, it's gonna be about, like, what we're gonna have with you.
Charles Jamieson [00:17:34]:
What's my relationship with my children? My children. It's a really you know, what's the relationship with each other that becomes a benefit. So if that's the case, if that's the thing, doing a different program from the start, from the beginning of the commencement of your case sets up a way and practice communication that's respectful, factual, but keeps you more enjoyable. And this helps you in co parenting where you need co parenting is not the best solution. But we everyone talks about co parenting being judged, all the statutes of it in terms of co parenting. What I'm talking now is that we're co parenting. Co parenting is that process where we attempt to come to a decision. We've got to discuss a decision.
Charles Jamieson [00:18:20]:
We've got an automated decision to check the file. Please know what's going on in kids' lives and changes in climate change and supply. That kind of change. Some people can do that appropriately, some can't. Those who can't, the best program will be worth more. But again, if you start with them doing the program, you get access to brief, then brief and form of your friend. That's sort of a problem. So again, it goes that's a subset to me with the adage, I as your attorney, I'm your attorney, not your lawyer.
Charles Jamieson [00:18:56]:
So those are some some really basic. I'm going back to the goals. Those are important because children are important, things you may each day I want, you know, a good time shipping. Like, yes, everyone can do the same one, majority time shipping. Now we have a presumption here in Florida, before then, I would say, really what you're telling me is we want to have a good relationship with the children. So let's talk about what that is because if you are traveling on the road every week and you're only home on the weekend, you can't tell me that you want 5050 gunshots because you're not here for it. Let's talk about making a meaningful schedule that works for creating foundation for good relationships with children now in the future. Or you may say, I want the house.
Charles Jamieson [00:19:40]:
Now, Houses can be a good thing, can be a bad thing, particularly among women find that it's emotional. Going up here. I'm growing up here, and my support system is here. What now? But financially, maybe you're no go. If I they've got that as number 1, my job may be to sit down with them, put your financial advisor or a whatever professional I have in the system, okay, it's an opportunity and, say, is this working? So they can hear it's not working, and if they make that decision so we can put it down on the lower end of the spectrum. It's also important for me because we're not negotiating mediation with my client, against the other side. I I want to know what the priority range of those goals are because I wanna trade a number 10 for number 2. Right.
Charles Jamieson [00:20:30]:
I only give up number 2 for to get into a 10, and that helps my client. Now, I realize that goals can change as the case goes on. All the time, the client says, let us know that, and we will reorient. Finally, it's good for just client management when I say client management. Inevitably, okay? I don't care how good or how well the divorce is going in terms of people not fighting and trying to get along. Inevitably, there will be the call, here from my client. It's upset and outraged. Something happened.
Charles Jamieson [00:20:59]:
They wanted to stop now. They wanted to just put their foot on the neck of the spout, push down hard, and want me to be the implement to do it. Well, if I don't remember what the goals are, look, they're popping up in my computer and say, okay, mister Chambers will spin. This is goal number 10. Now, maybe a strongly word letter from us would be more effective in us filing a motion. We'd save money and with a deep concentration of really what's important. But if you tell me you want me to file a motion for number 10, I'll do it. But I'm not even gonna get a little no from this to me, I'm doing it on number 10.
Charles Jamieson [00:21:31]:
Just so they understand, alright. My goal sometimes is to keep you on track. Yeah. And if the house is not gonna work, you know, that's not that's not gonna sell. So why? And so then there's the other final issue, please. Make sure that your attorney explores with you all the various vehicles that are available to resolve the form. Kitchen table negotiation. It's not very profitable for a jury, but it's one 2 spouse can sit down and work it out as well.
Charles Jamieson [00:22:02]:
That doesn't mean it is the term of the approval, but they've at least done done with the initial footwork, initial initial outcome. My job is just to put it in the language that was, but I'm cautioned about what the law is saying about them, knowingly and voluntarily give me a kiss right. I'm not against doing yourself divorce, but at the very least, have a good good thought it was reviewed by the term of the advice and forties.
Leah Hadley [00:22:29]:
Yeah.
Charles Jamieson [00:22:32]:
So that's, the issue that then there's mediation without a term. Right? What I mean by that. You sit down with a mediator with a mutual professional, you may have your financial advisor back on top of it, but what's what, which we come in and try again in the form of kitchen table negotiation with some help with the attorney's parking or another each year each year. So don't try to resolve the claim. The next form is negotiation with attorneys. That's when attorneys are there to assist you during the course of mediation. The next one I'll do is find a call. Collaborative for present series of meetings, you know, confidential done by collaborative training professionals with interest based negotiations.
Charles Jamieson [00:23:13]:
And there, have been confidential on the party signing of full disclosure when we have a mutual financial professional, mutual facilitator is used in my health professional. Agendas are separate from the work of both of the issues that that be the other one hundred That's a little more comprehensive for, mediation with attorneys and I think it was sometimes more unusual because it gets to complicated cases without going through. And finally, we have litigation, which is for people to get served. People get outraged when they get served because they see everything now alone in Florida, everything in the kitchen sink. Well, that's usually because you're in a family following. Build this pleading state. It's because if you don't plead it, you don't give it. You'll see the attorneys throw everything in, including the decision.
Charles Jamieson [00:24:10]:
You may ask for alimony. It's not I don't wanna really expect it probably with the quarter on the front plate just so you get something happen. You miss something. You're not caught up late. So but, unfortunately, with that, that's a good raises emotion. People get excited and outraged when you see what was happening. You said it was gonna be you said it could have happened, but I paid out, paid for what we have. But now, I'm saying you want the house, you want the house sold, it's going on.
Charles Jamieson [00:24:37]:
It may not be nothing your spouse has done. It may be just in turn to protect attorneys, but and it's the client's, but I'm sure that everybody's there. It's easier to give up on issues attorneys would love you, love to forgive you more. Some of them they should've even known, some of them they already incorporate, but generally, I don't know.
Leah Hadley [00:25:08]:
That was a fantastic list. There were so many just great nuggets that you shared with us throughout. I really appreciate it. Charles, where can people find you?
Charles Jamieson [00:25:18]:
We're located in West Palm Beach, Florida. Our website is www cjamiesoncjamiesomandlaw.com, which is our website, or you can call us. 561-478 0312. It's our number. And, again, we do cases throughout the state of Florida, and I'm available for consultation for cases around the country. Even though each state may be different, general principles always rely. You do a lot of work in area of children's alienation on estrangement, in reunification, which is a disability area. Most of them need to go more than anything to do.
Charles Jamieson [00:25:54]:
But you can reach us there. We do consultations, and we very share people throughout Florida, and we sit, set, and share with consultant attorneys, on case outside.
Leah Hadley [00:26:05]:
So we will include all of Charles' contact information in the show notes. Be sure to reach out to him if you are looking for additional support, because he is a fantastic resource. Thank you for being here with us.
Charles Jamieson [00:26:17]:
It's been a great pleasure.
Leah Hadley [00:26:19]:
Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
