Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention. Welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I am so happy that you are here, and I'm thrilled to welcome our guests today. Brittney Baker is a licensed clinical social worker and has provided individual and couples therapy for over 10 years. She is very energetic and passionate about her role as a therapist for high achieving professionals, couples, and their families.
Leah Hadley [00:00:46]:
Coming from a family of divorced parents, Britney is dedicated to helping others truly examine their role in their relationships to make positive and lasting changes either individually or as a couple. Britney earned her MSW from the University of Southern California and attended the University of Texas at Austin for undergrad. She trained at nationally ranked medical institutions in Houston, Texas. Britney founded her practice, Nicks Baker Wellness and Therapy in the North Shore of Chicago. She offers in person sessions and telehealth therapy in Colorado, Illinois, Texas, Arkansas, and Kansas. Welcome, Britney.
Brittany Baker [00:01:26]:
Hi. Thank you for having me.
Leah Hadley [00:01:28]:
Oh, it's my pleasure. Today, we're talking about an important topic that I think a lot of people just aren't aware of, quite frankly. So today, we're talking all about discernment counseling. And I think, you know, a lot of people who I see are in this sort of limbo of should I get divorced or not, in some cases for years, And so I really would love to dig into this topic of discernment counseling and help people understand what it is and kinda how it can help people. So, Britney, tell us a little bit about it.
Brittany Baker [00:02:01]:
Right. So discernment counseling is exactly what you just said. It's for these people who are in a relationship, who are trying to decide, do I stay in it or do I not? The way that the language that we use is oftentimes, there's one leaning in partner. Right? Somebody who wants the relationship and somebody who's leaning out ambivalent, not putting in so much effort. There can be 2 leaning out, partners as well. But, typically, you see one leaning in and one leaning out. And we all know that it's these decisions are really hard to make. And, also, it's hard when one person feels like they're really fighting for it, and the other person, again, feels indifferent or ambivalent about it.
Brittany Baker [00:02:44]:
But then you have families or finances or houses or all of these things that you're trying not to blow up. Right? And so discernment counseling is a short term counseling, and I'm very careful to use that word because it's very diff it's different than therapy, to help people work through this indifference or this ambivalence and come to a decision, whether that's to stay together, to divorce, or to stay status quo.
Leah Hadley [00:03:13]:
Okay. So why are you, making that distinction between counseling and therapy? What is the difference?
Brittany Baker [00:03:21]:
So with this with counseling and specifically with discernment counseling, this is a short term counseling. So, really, you don't want to we don't exceed 5 sessions, which is kind of a nice thing to hear for some people. Now the sessions are longer. They're typically either 2 hours or an hour and a half sessions, with a mix of meeting individually and meeting together, but it's very directed. The point of these sessions is to get to a decision. And, again, like I said, there are 3 kind of categories of decisions. There's, you know, the stage or, you know, one decision, which is status quo. There is, you know, stay together and pursue therapy, and then there is the, you know, go for divorce or or mediation.
Brittany Baker [00:04:08]:
But it's not therapy in the sense that we're not teaching people or helping people necessarily make changes. We're helping people to make a decision by examining themselves and examining the relationship and kind of creating a blueprint for what really needs to change in their relationship. I I sometimes liken it to purchasing a home. You know, whenever you go to purchase a home, most of us have inspections on that home, and then you get an inspection report. And then you can decide, do I wanna stay in this contract or not? And I jokingly and seriously say that discernment counseling is kind of like building that inspection report of what needs to happen and what needs to change for this to work, and do I want to do that?
Leah Hadley [00:04:55]:
Okay. So what can people expect during those 5 sessions?
Brittany Baker [00:05:00]:
Well, so the first session is typically a 2 hour session, and we meet together for a little bit, and we hear kind of the collective ideas of the relationship, see the dynamics, and then we meet alone, for a period of time. And most sessions, how it will look is a quick check-in in the beginning, a period of time typically around, like, 30, 45 minutes. And then we have this crossover period where the couple sit down together, and the person who I was meeting with will tell the person who was I wasn't meeting with, hey. This is what I took from talking with Britney right now. And then we switch places. And then at the end, we have this come together where we do the same thing and kind of summarize and decide, are we gonna do another session of discernment, or have we made a decision? Right? Within that individual time, we are talking about, you know, their ideas of the relationship, what has gone wrong in the relationship. But at the end of the day, I really, really push people to examine themselves and say, well, where did I where did I not show up? Or where did I not communicate well? Or where did I what what would I need to change to be able to stay in this relationship? And we do this because at the end of the day, we can point the finger at another person and say, you, you, you, you, you, but we can't make that person change. All that we can do is control ourselves.
Brittany Baker [00:06:31]:
And so examining our role in it and maybe what we have contributed to the dynamic, is very important because, say, you're someone who feels like you didn't do anything in the relationship, or this is something that I hear a lot is like, my husband doesn't think that he, you know, communicated this way or acts this way. He thinks that he shows me love or initiates sex in a certain way, and he doesn't. But then it's like, well, okay. That's fine. And maybe those things are all true. But how is that continued? And what what is the dynamic here that allows these these things to continue? And what do you contribute to that dynamic? Right? All communication is a give and a take, and it's asking people to examine their role in that give and take.
Leah Hadley [00:07:13]:
Okay. So who is discernment counseling appropriate for?
Brittany Baker [00:07:19]:
Discernment counseling is appropriate for pretty much anyone who is in this dynamic where, they are ambivalent about leaving, but it's on the table or they notice that their partner is ambivalent about leaving, but they're also feeling like we we kinda need to have discussions about this and and to figure out what exactly we're doing. Even for my clients who choose to stay status quo, they find some peace in knowing that that's a mindful and active choice that they've made versus just sitting in the space where you're not communicating.
Leah Hadley [00:07:53]:
And do you ever find that through discernment counseling, people decide to work on their relationship and then maybe enter into marriage counseling?
Brittany Baker [00:08:03]:
Yep. So the statistics break down to around, like, you know, 40 something percent pick, you know, pass 2, which is, the the couple's counseling. And we ask them to do a 6 month commitment, and sometimes they'll continue with the discernment counselor or they'll move on to a therapist or a different therapist. But then, you know, 40 ish something, a little bit over 40%, choose the choose the divorce route, the the medi or the mediation route. And then around, like, 10 ish percent choose status quo. And kind of within those, percentages, you know, half and half kinda stay on their pathway. Right? Like, somebody may get down the path where they were feeling really indifferent and they made this decision to get divorced. And then going through the process, they're, like, evaluating their blueprint and kind of, like, oh, actually, I I probably do need to work on these communication techniques.
Brittany Baker [00:09:04]:
And the thing about discernment counseling, which I think is always important to point out, is that, typically, the disruptions that you're seeing in your intimate relationships are probably also present to some degree in your other relationships. And so the blueprint that we create is not just for your relationship with your spouse or your partner. It is also something that can be transferable to other relationships as well and probably improve your life as a whole.
Leah Hadley [00:09:33]:
That's fantastic. I can see so much benefit from that.
Brittany Baker [00:09:37]:
Right. Right. Well and, again, I I I wanna point out that the difference in the the counseling and the therapy is, like, we're kind of creating an action plan during this discernment counseling phase and, like, what that could look like and kind of pressing to make a decision, and and mediating that decision through self reflection, where therapy would be taking this blueprint and being like, okay. Now let's start working on this blueprint and actually, you know, build the house or do whatever it is that we that we say we need to do.
Leah Hadley [00:10:08]:
Okay. Is the CEREMET counseling then a separate training relative to therapy?
Brittany Baker [00:10:15]:
Yes. There is. There are, so Bill Doherty, he is kind of the founder he is the founder of the, of discernment counseling, and he, you know, was in the field for a long time and kind of saw a need. How there's, you know, there's there's a lot of therapists are not trained in this ambivalence and are pushing for the couple to stay together. And and in discernment counseling, like, the therapist is is truly a mediator and helping to work through ambivalence, not pushing for one pathway or another. And so it is a different it is a different, type of training, and there's different manual, and different and different process. Some of the skills that you learn as a therapist can be used, like, in regards to, like, communication and working through emotions and how you connect to people, like, having a good relationship is important. But it is it is different.
Brittany Baker [00:11:11]:
And I'll say, it didn't feel that strange for me because I have as a therapist, I have a pretty, like, direct and more blunt way of being, where some therapists do not. And in discernment counseling, again, it's it's short term, and it's really it's not meant to exceed 5 sessions. And though those sessions are long and intense, as a therapist, you have to be blunt and help push along, the process, and, the trainings help the therapist to do that. And it can it can be quite disruptive if the therapist isn't truly trained in it and understand the differences between, discernment counseling and other forms of therapy.
Leah Hadley [00:11:53]:
So then do not all couples therapists offer discernment counseling?
Brittany Baker [00:11:57]:
No. And it's actually really interesting in our field. There I think it discernment counseling is becoming more popularized, especially in the couples therapy world, but I'm surprised at how many therapists still are unaware that it that it's a form of a form of therapy tool that a therapist can use to help through work through ambivalence.
Leah Hadley [00:12:20]:
That's really interesting.
Brittany Baker [00:12:22]:
Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:12:23]:
So let's say I'm listening to this podcast and I'm thinking, you know what? Discernment counseling might really help me and my spouse. How do you recommend they approach their spouse about that?
Brittany Baker [00:12:37]:
My guess is that well, on Divorce Girls Smiling, I wrote a really great, article on, talking to your to your spouse about divorce, and there's a lot of great hints and communication in that in that article. And so you could use some of those skills where we talk about how, like, how to timely approach someone, collecting your own thoughts. But a lot of the times when it comes to, like, discernment asking for discernment counseling, people have tried other forms of therapy and haven't felt that it's worked and kind of then inadvertently quit and decided that they're just gonna stay status quo, but didn't have a direct conversation about it. A lot of people are going to know in their relationship that things are not great, that you're not connected to your spouse, that you're not feeling like you're functioning well. So I think, like, kind of approaching it from this perspective of, listen. Things aren't great between us, and and that's this is how I'm feeling. And I always encourage people to not, you know, tell someone else how they're feeling, but focus on, I, this is how I feel, and this is what I would like to see happen. Right? Make those requests.
Brittany Baker [00:13:44]:
But approaching your spouse in that way, expressing those feelings, and saying, like, I found this resource, and I'm curious what you would think about it. And then from there, if a spouse says yes, right, which sometimes it's that easy and sometimes it's not, sometimes it's multiple conversations, then you would call a discernment counselor like myself, and then we would typically do some sort of phone consultation with each partner separately. Like, I for discernment counseling, I typically will set up a phone or a video consultation that's, you know, 30 ish minutes or so, and I have very specific questions that I ask, trying to see who's leaning in and who's leading out and who wants this and who doesn't, and so that I have an idea of what the dynamic is before they come in.
Leah Hadley [00:14:27]:
Okay. Do you ever find that some people use discernment counseling to try to get their spouse on board with a divorce?
Brittany Baker [00:14:36]:
Absolutely. Like, if a leaning out partner reaches out to me, that's typically their agenda. Right? Is this I want a divorce, and and my partner's not in agreement to it. You know, we we get calls from the leaning out partners and the leaning in partners. Like, the leaning in partners are calling in desperation. I don't wanna get a divorce, but I can't convince my partner. They just kinda live and we're acting as roommates and living in the house together and but or they've called a lawyer, and I just can't agree to this. Can this is our last shot.
Brittany Baker [00:15:09]:
Right? Or the leaning out partner is like, hey. I've called a lawyer. I don't want to go that route. I wanna do mediation, but my partner won't agree to that and doesn't wanna get divorced. So, you know, it's it's divorce is interesting because it's you don't wanna stay in a relationship that someone doesn't wanna be in, but you also kinda have to if someone doesn't wanna sign the paperwork and to go through the process. Right? So it it can be a standstill sometimes, and I think both leaning in and leaning out partners will call kind of in that desperation.
Leah Hadley [00:15:37]:
Well, and it sounds like this can be a really nice bridge to kind of being in that place to figuring out really what's next.
Brittany Baker [00:15:45]:
Right. Right. Well and, you know, what's interesting is how people how people come in, whether you come in leaning in or leaning out. It's interesting to watch throughout the process that sometimes the leaning out partner changes very quickly, and we'll be like, oh, this is different than what we've talked about before. I have this clear pathway. Like, let's let's try to work on this. I don't wanna blow up our lives. And then sometimes the leaning in partner is like, oh, like, this is this is what has to be done.
Brittany Baker [00:16:12]:
Like, I I'm not I don't wanna do this.
Leah Hadley [00:16:15]:
Right. Yeah. I imagine that's a very eye opening experience for a lot of people. And I appreciate that you made that distinction earlier about how the discernment counselor is really more of a neutral party, because I can imagine being concerned if I was the leaning out person that there would be pressure on me to stay in the relationship. And I think it's really good for people to know that that person is neutral, and you're really looking at all the options.
Brittany Baker [00:16:43]:
Right. I mean, whenever every session I come into it and we're talking about path 1, path 2, path 3. Right? And I'm asking questions like, what would it look like to be in path 2? What does it look like to be in path 3? You know, really evaluating also, you know, also just what everybody's feeling in those moments because people flip flop back and forth. The other thing too that I think is is really powerful are those moments where we cross over and we meet together because the person that I'm speaking have been speaking to will report to their partner or their spouse what what they what we talked about. And that's oftentimes the spouse is oftentimes hearing things that maybe they have felt or seen, but then have never heard their spouse say or acknowledge. And and so even no matter if it's the leaning in or the leaning out partner, it can be very eye opening and connecting because it again, you feel seen and heard. And some of this stuff, it's it's interesting because I know I made this distinction between counseling and and therapy, and there there is this distinction in in this regard. But there is also a little bit of learning.
Brittany Baker [00:17:50]:
Like, when we do those crossover and we're we're doing this communication, this is also a really nice way to communicate in your lives in general, which is oftentimes what's happening in in marriages is there's this massive, massive breakdown in how you communicate and connect to each other.
Leah Hadley [00:18:07]:
That's such a good point. And I know I often when somebody reaches out to me and they're considering divorce, they haven't made that decision yet, I often encourage them to seek out counseling, because that really even if they do ultimately decide they wanna go through divorce, that's gonna improve their communication skills significantly, which then ultimately helps make the divorce a smoother process anyway. So I love to know that discernment counseling is similar and that you really do develop those skills that are gonna help you regardless.
Brittany Baker [00:18:38]:
Right. Right. And I think too just that practice of thinking about your role. Because even when you're going through a divorce, right, like, you can get communication from your lawyer or wherever and get so frustrated at the other person and point fingers, and then that makes us reactive, and then we get angry and vindictive. And at the end of the day, like, we have choices. We don't have to react. We can respond. We can we can feel angry, but that doesn't mean we have to act angry.
Brittany Baker [00:19:04]:
Right? And I think that discernment counseling, to your point, also can can help you think about that. Like, okay. I don't control them. I only control myself. So what what what do I do in this situation in response to this?
Leah Hadley [00:19:20]:
Fantastic. So, Britney, where can people learn more about you?
Brittany Baker [00:19:24]:
Yeah. They can check out my website. It's nixbakerwellness dotcom. I have social media, but I am not as active on social media as I should be. But they can definitely reach me at my website. My email and my phone number are on on my website. And I'm happy I'm always happy to connect with people and answer questions. And, you know, I do offer consultation for all clients, whether that's individuals or couples, a phone consultation.
Brittany Baker [00:19:53]:
Because at the end of the day, you have to have a good connection with whoever it is that you wanna meet with. And if you get on the phone with me and are like, everything about you annoys me, then that's not gonna work. It's not gonna work for me. It's not gonna work for you. So, like, I like people to have an opportunity to talk to me to make sure they they feel like it could be a good fit.
Leah Hadley [00:20:13]:
Fantastic. And we will be sure to include in the show notes that link to the article that you wrote for Divorced Girl Smiling as well. So I think that's a great reference for people to learn more. Any final words for those who are in this space of should I stay or should I go?
Brittany Baker [00:20:30]:
I mean, the thing that the thing that I normally tell people is that, you know, it's one thing to be taking a pause to make a mindful decision, and it's another to be avoiding something because you're anxious about the change, whether that's a change in your relationship and what that means or whether that's getting divorced and your everything about your life changing. So be mindful of, like, what's happening there. Is this avoidance, which is gonna create more anxiety and turmoil in the long long run, or is this you really taking a pause to make a a mindful decision? And if it's avoidance, find a discernment counselor, find your own therapist so that you can start working through that avoidance. Because like I said, in the long run, just continuing to push this problem out, continuing not to communicate about it, continuing to avoid whatever it is that you're feeling or thinking, it's only gonna make it grow. It's only giving that anxiety and that stress fuel. So do something about it. Take action.
Leah Hadley [00:21:29]:
Such a good point, and I appreciate you sharing that with us. And I appreciate you being here today. Thank you so much for all of the information about discernment counseling and communication, and I've just learned so much from you in our short time together.
Brittany Baker [00:21:42]:
Well, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Leah Hadley [00:21:46]:
And for our audience, we do have an information session coming up. So if you have been interested in our services and wanna learn more about how we can work together, go ahead and check out our website. We'll include a link to in the show notes all about our upcoming information session. We'll see you next week. Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce.
Leah Hadley [00:22:21]:
Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
