Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention. Welcome back to intentional divorce insights. I am so happy you're here. We have a wonderful guest with us today. This is Cary Jacobson, who is the founder and CEO of Jacobson Family Law.
Leah Hadley [00:00:37]:
She's been practicing law for over a decade, so she brings a wealth of experience to share with us, having successfully represented clients in all facets of family law proceedings. Jacobson Jacobson family law focuses on assisting clients and creating out of court solutions, and we'll talk a little bit more about what that means momentarily to their separation, divorce, custody, and other family law matters with without the drama and stress associated with litigation. Additionally, they assist clients with protecting their assets through the negotiation of pre and post nuptial agreements. Welcome, Carrie. Thanks for being with us.
Cary Jacobson [00:01:14]:
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Leah Hadley [00:01:16]:
Oh, it's my pleasure. And we're talking about an important topic today, and that is all about the fact that there are different processes when it comes to how you terminate your marriage. There are lots of options, and a lot of people don't realize that there are so many options. And Carrie is really an expert in some of the alternatives that people may not always think about. So I'm thrilled to be talking about this. Carrie, talk to us a little bit about what those options are.
Cary Jacobson [00:01:43]:
Okay. Like you said, there's lots of different options. And so most people think, I'm getting a divorce, so I need to go hire an attorney and file, my case right away. Right? And my suggestion is don't do that. Because as soon as someone files the court case, it's really hard to put on the brakes. And oftentimes, it start the negotiation process in a heightened state, really. And so what I've seen is, honestly, you know, someone gets served with papers, and they just can't get over all of the terrible things the other person put in the the complaint. And it's really hard to get past some of those things to a place where they can negotiate.
Cary Jacobson [00:02:36]:
So my suggestion is try to negotiate outside of court first, and then go to court if those successful. And there's lots of different options negotiation.
Leah Hadley [00:02:55]:
So what are some of those options, Carrie?
Cary Jacobson [00:02:57]:
Yeah. So the first is simply having a conversation with your spouse. Many times, we call this the kitchen table agreement. Many times, you know, couples may come to us or a client may come to us and say, you know, my spouse and I have an idea of what we already wanna do. We've talked through most of these things, and we want to just make sure that it is that we've covered everything. Right? And that it is in a legal format that protects both of us. I do always suggest that even if you're having that, you know, kitchen table agreement, that you do have an attorney at least draft the document. There are forms online.
Cary Jacobson [00:03:38]:
If you're doing this for the first time, you don't know what you don't know, and you may forget something. You may not put the language in that's necessary for the court. And so finding an attorney who, you know, wants to help you through the process, but not inflame the situation is critical.
Leah Hadley [00:03:58]:
Absolutely. So besides the kitchen table divorce, what are some other processes that people use outside the court?
Cary Jacobson [00:04:05]:
Yeah. The second would be mediation. And I think a lot of people expect that you have to be at odds with one another if you want to do mediation, and that's not how you know, that's not the experience that we have. We work with lots of couples. Sometimes that couple that has already reached an agreement, they want to come to mediation because they don't want attorneys involved, because they're concerned that those attorneys will make the case more complicated. And so as a mediator, what we do is walk them through to make sure they have thought of all of these scenarios, that they have covered all of the issues, and then we draft that agreement for them. We also work with some couples who can't have those conversations on their own, and they need the assistance of a third party to have those effective communications. Maybe the, you know, there's a power imbalance or there is simply, you know, that they get into arguments if they're just talking to one another.
Cary Jacobson [00:05:06]:
And so they need the help and assistance of a third party to kinda guide those conversations. And so we work work with those couples as well to kind of glean those agreements on those issues in a way that is more effective.
Leah Hadley [00:05:21]:
Fantastic. And there's some other options too. Right?
Cary Jacobson [00:05:25]:
Yeah. So sometimes when communication is really tense between couples, what might be an effective way is for each party to have their own attorney. And in that scenario, usually, the attorneys are acting as the liaison in communicating the, agreements or negotiations between the couple. So it could be that, you know, you as the client are working with your attorney. They, in turn, talk to the attorney for your spouse and vice versa. So that can be an effective way when communication between parties just isn't effective. And then the last one that I see, similar to mediation in a lot of ways, but also very different, which is collaborative divorce. And collaborative divorce is for those couples that need more support, and it is a team approach.
Cary Jacobson [00:06:27]:
So collaborative typically consists of each party having their own collaboratively trained attorneys. Oftentimes, they each will have their own divorce coach. Sometimes, there's only one neutral coach, but oftentimes, there's 2 coaches. And then we bring in other professionals as needed. So it could be a financial neutral. We have mortgage brokers. We have real estate agents. We have children specialists.
Cary Jacobson [00:06:53]:
And what's really unique about the collaborative process is that everyone on that team signs something called a participation agreement. And in that participation agreement, everyone is committing to being completely truthful and honest and providing full disclosure about all of the important information. And if for some reason the process breaks down and the parties are unable to reach an agreement, they then have to hire new professionals for the litigation, of that case. So they kinda have some incentive to work through the process and reach a resolution.
Leah Hadley [00:07:32]:
So with all those people involved, it sounds like collaborative divorce could become really expensive. Is that fair to say?
Cary Jacobson [00:07:41]:
I will say that it is generally more expensive than some of the other process options. But when we're talking about scenarios where there might be businesses involved, or other, you know, professionals or, like, experts needed, it still ends up being less expensive than litigation. So instead of couples each hiring their own business evaluator as an example, they can agree to hire one neutral business evaluator and share the expense of that instead of having to hire, you know, multiples that are going to go to court. And it also gives them it ultimately gives them more control because they're still the ones reaching the agreement instead of leaving it up to a judge to make that decision.
Leah Hadley [00:08:32]:
Okay. So how, in general, can choosing the wrong process make someone's case more expensive?
Cary Jacobson [00:08:41]:
So if you choose the wrong process, it can make the case longer, and then also more expensive. So in our such cases, most of the time in those out of court resolutions, we typically see that our clients are able to resolve issues within 6 months or less. Okay. Sometimes there are scenarios where we have difficulty with the other party. Maybe their attorney that they've chosen, can be more challenging to deal with. And, you know, oftentimes, we have issues where if we're working with an attorney that may be more litigation focused, sometimes they just can't we have a hard time getting, them to respond and to, you know, make this case feel like it's an important one for them to resolve. Because, you know, oftentimes, what I see is litigators are like, okay. What's on my what's on my calendar for next week? Right? And they're so focused on getting that next thing done and getting that next thing done.
Cary Jacobson [00:09:50]:
And when we're talking about settlement, it's not something that's necessarily calendared. Right? And so it's really hard, I think, for sometimes for those litigators to put the settlement negotiations at the forefront to to finalize.
Leah Hadley [00:10:07]:
Sure. That makes a lot of sense. Now I know you do a lot of mediations. It sounds like, mediation is one of the more cost effective solutions. Who is mediation right for? And are there people that mediation just isn't the best choice?
Cary Jacobson [00:10:23]:
Yeah. I think mediation really is right for anyone to at least initiate. And the reason I say that is even if a couple is unable to reach a full agreement in mediation, they can get they could potentially resolve 1 or 2 issues. And any issues you resolve outside of court is going to reduce your ultimate attorney's fees and how long you have to, you know, deal with these issues in court. Also, it can be information gathering. The settlement discussions that happen in mediation cannot later be used in litigation. You can't, you know, say in court, well, my spouse offered to do x, y, and or z because it's settlement negotiations, and anything that's discussed in mediation is confidential. But you can get into better understanding of what, you know, what are those issues that they're really focused on so that it can help you negotiate down the road? It's very scenario where mediation just is not help in in Maryland where we are and I think in most other states, even if you start a case in court, 9 times out of 10, they're gonna require you to participate in mediation anyway.
Cary Jacobson [00:11:51]:
And so my suggestion is, well, let's do that first, narrow the scope of the issues. And then if you need to go to court, then you can do that.
Leah Hadley [00:12:01]:
That's really helpful. Should somebody hire an attorney if they're gonna mediate their divorce?
Cary Jacobson [00:12:08]:
So this really depends. And the reason it depends is it depends on what the issues are. So there are scenarios. It's There are mental health professionals that do mediation. Generally speaking, however, they will only deal with issues related to children and dealing with the parenting plan. Almost never do they, handle issues related to finances. There may be financial experts, and, like, you know, professionals like yourself that do issues related to the finances and the division of assets. Typically, in my experience, financial professionals do not deal with issues related to the kids.
Cary Jacobson [00:12:55]:
So oftentimes, if you're looking for someone who can can handle both kid related issues as well as the financial issues, having a family law attorney who is, you know, an experienced mediator can handle both of those. Sometimes I will suggest, especially if I have families who have little kids, I'm looking 2 or younger, talk to that mental health professional because they really can help guide what's the best custody arrangement and parenting time arrangement for a child of that age because that's developmental, you know, issues that are really gonna be important for those kids. But generally speaking, family law attorneys are a great option for mediation to get all of those issues resolved.
Leah Hadley [00:13:46]:
Okay. And if they're just going through remediation with a mediator who's not an attorney, do you recommend that they consult with an attorney throughout the mediation?
Cary Jacobson [00:13:55]:
Absolutely. And I will say even if you are working with a a mediator who is an attorney, still, it's great to consult with an attorney because when the, family law attorney mediator is wearing the mediator hat, we can't give legal advice. We can give some suggestions on how certain things are done, things that we've seen other families do and, you know, kind of walk through those options for for individuals. But we can't say, well, this is what you should consider or, you know, this is what would be in your So and it also having a consult with an attorney either prior to mediation or throughout the mediation process can help you prepare for an effective mediation, also give you a reasonable expectations as to what to expect. You know, and so that you're not coming in asking for a 100% custody or a 100% of the assets. Right? So that you really have a reasonable, starting place for those negotiations. And then once the mediation's over and we've drafted the document, it's also helpful to have that attorney review it to make sure that it says what you thought it was gonna say, and it protects your legal interest.
Leah Hadley [00:15:20]:
Can the parties use the same attorney?
Cary Jacobson [00:15:23]:
No. So it's ethically in inappropriate for an attorney to represent both parties, who have adverse positions to one another. So they would each have to have their own attorneys review their documents.
Leah Hadley [00:15:40]:
Okay. Now you talked a little bit about collaborative divorce before and how you can take advantage of using, you know, one professional, or one expert in a specific area throughout the collaborative process. Do you ever bring experts into your, mediations?
Cary Jacobson [00:16:00]:
There have been scenarios where we have brought in experts, or I will also sometimes have the parties do homework and refer them to other professionals, whether it's a mortgage broker. You know, someone wants to stay at the house. They need to know whether or not they will qualify. I can give broker. Sometimes they will property. Property so they have a better understand what the, you know, the asset There have been times when we have worked with as, like, a co mediation with a financial professional who can help guide them on the best way to divide assets that are gonna be, you know, have the best tax consequences for their situation. So it is often a situation where bringing in an expert can be very valuable to the clients.
Leah Hadley [00:16:49]:
Yeah. I'll be honest. Supporting mediation with financial analysis is one of my favorite things that I do. Because having everybody at the table, having that mediator to facilitate the conversation, and having everybody on the same page is so productive. Absolutely. It helps people to get to resolution so much faster. And, you know, that's that's what we like to see is people getting to where they need to be so they can move on to the next chapter. So what really is that difference between mediation and collaborative divorce if it isn't really the experts?
Cary Jacobson [00:17:26]:
One of the biggest things is the that participation agreement. In collaborative, you have that patient agreement that, you know, if things go south, you have to hire new people. Secondly, is typically there the collaborative is very process oriented. As far as you have a team meeting, there are official minutes of that meeting. There's an agenda going forward with each of those meetings. Mediation is a little less, rigid and flows more based on what the parties need. Oftentimes, I think, mediation is a more streamlined and quicker approach than the collaborative approach. I see collaborative is a bit more hand holding and and support of that financial or of the overall team as opposed to mediation.
Leah Hadley [00:18:24]:
When you're meeting with a new client, is there something you're listening for to say, like, oh, this might be better for a collaborative divorce?
Cary Jacobson [00:18:33]:
Yeah. I tend to recommend collaborative if there are issues, you know, potentially mental health issues, substance abuse issues, people who have a bit more difficulty in making decisions, maybe where the other spouse needs that, you know, more support. Maybe it's not my client, maybe it's the other individual. And if the you know, a case can only go as quick as the slowest person in the case. Right? And so sometimes it's just that one person is further along in the emotional side of the separation. And so those are scenarios where I think collaborative can be more appropriate than mediation.
Leah Hadley [00:19:21]:
That is super helpful. Now for somebody who's just getting started, and now they've heard about all these different options, which for some people may feel overwhelming because the process of divorce just is oftentimes overwhelming without any different options to be choosing from. Where do you suggest that they start?
Cary Jacobson [00:19:43]:
Oftentimes, I suggest starting with a, starting with a divorce coach who can help ground you and help you decide what it is that you are looking for in a process. Also working with an an you know, whether it's an attorney or a mediator who handles multiple options. Right? So it's not every attorney does this. So having someone who does have those different options, and you can do a consult. You know, oftentimes, I may work with a couple in a consult and give them each of the options, and then we help them decide which one is the better fit for them.
Leah Hadley [00:20:24]:
Mhmm.
Cary Jacobson [00:20:25]:
So those would be 2 ways. And then the other thing would be just to continue to educate yourself on which option is, you know, in what each one of those are entailed with and which option might be a better fit for you.
Leah Hadley [00:20:40]:
Okay. Fantastic. In your area, Carrie, where can people find a collaboratively trained attorney?
Cary Jacobson [00:20:47]:
So each, state typically has, you know, practice groups. There's also an international, the International Academy of Collaborative Professional, which is the national group or international group. And then there are locations within your different states. So you can ask for, you know, do a Google search for collaborative, divorce professionals in your particular state. I'm in Maryland. We have 3, almost 4 practice groups now. And a lot of times, the professionals overlap into different groups.
Leah Hadley [00:21:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. We have 2 practice groups here in Cleveland and several more throughout the state. So they do exist, but I think that's a great idea to just search collaborative professionals, DORS professionals in your particular area Yeah. To be able to find somebody. And how about mediator? How what's a good way for you to find a mediator?
Cary Jacobson [00:21:46]:
Yes. So there are different groups for that as well. There's, mediate.com. You can also just, you know, do a Google search, divorce mediator Cleveland, for instance. And, you know, you'll find different, individuals that do that work. Check their reviews. You know, check their website. Is this something that they prominently promote on their website? Is this something that they are really focused on and have experience with?
Leah Hadley [00:22:19]:
Perfect. Well, Carrie, I so appreciate all of this information. This was super helpful for anybody who's just getting started and considering their options. So thank you so much for being here.
Cary Jacobson [00:22:30]:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Leah Hadley [00:22:33]:
Carrie, where can people find you if they'd like to learn more about your services?
Cary Jacobson [00:22:38]:
Thank you. So our website, which is jacobsonfamilylaw.com, and we are all over social as well. You can find us on LinkedIn, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube.
Leah Hadley [00:22:51]:
Oh my goodness. I didn't know you were in all those places, but I do follow Carrie on LinkedIn. And she's, shares so much great information. So I do encourage you to seek her out on social media, and follow her for some great tips if you're going through the divorce process. Again, thank you for being here, Carrie. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.
Cary Jacobson [00:23:12]:
Thank you.
Leah Hadley [00:23:13]:
Thank you for joining me on intentional divorce insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
