Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention.
Leah Hadley [00:00:24]:
Hi, and welcome back to Intentional Divorce Insights. I am thrilled to welcome our guest today who is committed to a good divorce, and we're gonna find out what that means in just a minute. Let me introduce you. This is Karen McNenny. She is a leading voice in the ever growing field of human behavior and relationship coaching. She is a certified divorce coach. She's a mediator. Wait till you hear all these credentials.
Leah Hadley [00:00:49]:
She's a co parenting specialist. She, is a crucial conversations trainer, which I'm curious. What is that, Karen?
Karen McNenny [00:00:57]:
Yeah. Crucial conversations is a model of, well, having the hard conversations. It comes from crucial learning. They've been around for decades, and it's a 12 hour training program that I've done a lot, not only with my divorcing clients, but also with my corporate clients where I spend time helping humans get along with other humans a little bit better.
Leah Hadley [00:01:20]:
Fantastic. She is also a gracious space facilitator and the live global radio host show host of the good divorce show. So she brings over 25 years of professional experience, and has supported a wide variety of groups in their efforts to improve workplace culture, employee engagement, and leadership excellence. Through her signature, good divorce experience, Karen works with couples to learn not just how to get divorced, but how to be divorced. And that is definitely the missing piece for a lot of people. Her coaching program covers fundamentals such as financials and budgeting, child centered decision making, custody and transition planning, and navigating your new relationship with your former spouse. So I am so thrilled to have Karen here with all of her expertise. Thank you for joining us, Karen.
Karen McNenny [00:02:12]:
Happy to be here, Leah. Thank you.
Leah Hadley [00:02:15]:
So can you tell us a little bit about what brought you into this work?
Karen McNenny [00:02:20]:
Well, like many of us, not all of us, but many of us, I am a divorce survivor, and I really use that word survivor in earnest. It is a hard journey. It's not anything that we set out to do. I have now been divorced 12 and a half years. My kiddos were 57 at the time, And, Michael and I, my, father of my children, you know, we knew that the marriage was coming to an end, but the relationship doesn't come to an end. We have a forever relationship. We're raising children together, and then, hopefully, we're sharing grandbabies and graduations and weddings and all the other thresholds that come along with being family. And I know at the time of my own divorce, I looked around and I thought, I don't wanna be enemies with this person.
Karen McNenny [00:03:19]:
I don't want to make life difficult for my children. I don't wanna spend tens of 1,000 of dollars to do this little legal act, and there was no one to guide us. And I remember specifically, we were in marital counseling at the time, as many couples are, trying to save the marriage, wondering if we were in or if we were out. And then it becomes clear that, well, this marriage is complete and we're done. And then our marriage counselor kinda graduates us and dismisses us. And there was no one there to guide us how to talk to our kids, how to reestablish our own communication patterns, how we were going to renovate the relationship of our marriage into a divorced relationship, and and how we could still maintain and hold on to this idea of one family that lives across 2 homes. So in many ways, I built the business that I wanted to have for myself when I went through my own divorce.
Leah Hadley [00:04:18]:
Oh, that is so beautiful and inspiring to hear that as well. Now I know that you've seen some pretty great outcomes with some of your clients. Tell us a little bit about how you're able to achieve those outcomes.
Karen McNenny [00:04:31]:
Yeah. I think that one of the primary hallmarks of the good divorce experience in the work that I do as a coach is that I actually work with both parents. Mhmm. A lot of coaches, a lot of lawyers, even financial advisors, sometimes you're working with one member of that dyad, which means you're always gonna, in my language, it's the feeling of we're sitting in 1 movie theater watching 2 different movies.
Leah Hadley [00:04:56]:
Right.
Karen McNenny [00:04:57]:
And what we wanna do is is unify. So, just like the intentional divorce experience that you bring to people, there are a lot of us who don't wanna lawyer up and fight and litigate. We just want an intentional, thoughtful experience. So step 1, 2 people who come to me together and say, will you help us collectively? And that already is a best practice for getting a better outcome. Then I work with a couple, not only in the getting divorced at some at some point, we're gonna call a lawyer, and they're gonna write up our legal documents. But prior to that, we're talking about the real estate, the family home, the assets, the kids, the galaxy of people around the family, which are the grandparents, the aunts and uncles, the other friends in your circle who might be stirring the pot and creating negativity around your divorce experience. So I'll work with my clients about how to talk with them, how to create healthy boundaries. And we really are leaning into this thought of we're going to renovate your relationship, particularly if you're still raising children, if you've got children in the story.
Karen McNenny [00:06:12]:
And I work with couples that don't have children, and it's a little more one and done, and you can go on your merry way, which doesn't necessarily mean it's without pain and, challenges. But when I can take a couple and, generally, I work with them individually. In 1 week, I'll have 1 on 1 sessions with them to really do the deep listening of where their fears are, their challenges, as they think about a solo life ahead of them. And also it gives them a space to say, they're still doing this thing that drives me crazy, and and they wanna write the nastygram. And I let them kinda spew all that out on me because it needs to get out, But not gonna spew it on your soon to be x. We're not gonna spew it on your kids, and I'm actually gonna help you to release that so you don't carry it with you for the next 10 months, 10 years, and beyond. Because holding on to that pain and and bitter feelings and resentment really is just like you taking the poison and hoping they die.
Leah Hadley [00:07:20]:
Mhmm.
Karen McNenny [00:07:21]:
You're carrying something around that isn't gonna serve you. So we look at the before, during, and after effects of the divorce so that you can get into your life rather than staying stuck in the divorce story.
Leah Hadley [00:07:37]:
Such powerful work that you're doing. And, you know, I think it's so great when couples are able to work with 1 neutral party. It just seems to be a very productive way to be able to move forward and have communication be clear and open and transparent. So I love that you're doing that. Now I'm sure you see some common mistakes that people make when they are on their divorce journey. Can you tell us a little bit about what you see?
Karen McNenny [00:08:05]:
Yes. I think, you know, the most common one we hear about, and I'm sure a lot of your guests discusses, is when we put our children in the center, or in the middle, and and what that looks like. Let me paint a couple pictures for you because people are like, oh, of course I'm not gonna put my kids in the middle. We love our kids. And and I know one great pioneer in this work, always says that you need to love your children more than you hate your former spouse. And when you keep that in the forefront of your mind, that's Christina McGee, a shout out to one of the great pioneers. We need to love our children more than we hate our former spouse. But it's these little subtle things.
Karen McNenny [00:08:51]:
So for instance, it might be me turning to my kids and saying, so I think I saw dad in the grocery store the other day, and he was with some tall, leggy, blonde gal. What's her name? Do you know anything about her? It seems innocent enough, but I'm now putting my child in the position of reporter or even worse, like the spy and then the bridge between the parents. Then I remember my own moment where I did ask one of my children something about dad that seemed very innocuous. Like, oh, is he leaving on Saturday or Sunday for his business trip? And she turned to me. It was my my Sofia, and she said, sounds like a good question for you to ask dad. And that's part of the I know, really. And how we trained our children to let them know you can call us out. Right? These are the things that we're trying to do or not do.
Karen McNenny [00:09:54]:
I think another mistake is that parents don't actually talk about the experience of divorce with their kids. That we try to act like it's not happening or, that we're all just, you know, kids are resilient. Let's get on with it. So another best practice would be to just use this phrase. You know, every few weeks or once a month. Again, you have to know your kids and and what's gonna be important for them and how they're responding. But it literally is just saying, so how's life in 2 houses going? Nice, broad, open. And then some follow-up questions might be, do you have everything that you need? Is there something different that dad and I could do for you? Is there something that's really working? What are you liking about living in 2 houses? And I think that's a big one that all of us in the divorce story, we have this kind of guilt and sense that there should be no pleasure post divorce.
Karen McNenny [00:10:55]:
The kids shouldn't be happy. The parents should be happy. We've done this terrible thing. We've ripped our families apart. We're failures. That narrative doesn't serve anyone. And, you know, my kids, they'll even say when it's transition time, like, oh, thank goodness I'm going to dad's house. I've kinda had enough of you for a couple of weeks.
Karen McNenny [00:11:20]:
Or that they get really individual. I've heard this from other children. Like, you know, maybe there was kind of an absent parent when we were all living in the same house, but now when I'm in a house with one parent, they've done the grocery shopping. They went on their trips. They've had time out with their friends. And when the kids come back home to that singular parent, it is so focused. And they get now a really equal deep relationship with both parents. If we do it well, that's what we're going for.
Karen McNenny [00:11:53]:
And asking them what's working and not working. Like, I really want my bike at this house. We had a shake up in our household where we were always alternating, you know, weeks, and then we're alternating holidays, trying to keep everything just balanced just so. And sometimes it's the parents who lock into that custody schedule. Mhmm. And that they don't provide any flexibility to each other, and therefore, they're not providing any flexibility to the children. Right. And once our kids were old enough and Santa Claus, spoiler alert, they they leaned in and said, do we have to keep doing the same tradition that we've always done? Because we really love Thanksgiving with dad's family.
Karen McNenny [00:12:41]:
Like, that's their big holiday. And everyone gathers, and there's music making, and there's singing, and there's ritual, and there's food, and and it is. It's it's a beautiful way that they celebrate. And Christmas is really big on my side of the family, and they're like, can we just always do Thanksgiving with dad and always do Christmas with you, mom? And then parents, we went behind the scenes, right, off stage, not on stage with the kids, and we had an informed conversation about that. And we're like, well, I'm fine with that. Are you fine with that? And and, yeah, somewhere out there, there's a document called our parenting plan that says something different. I will remind all of your listeners, Leah, your parenting plan, the best parenting plan is, 1, the kids don't know about it, and 2, you never have to refer to it. Because, ultimately, you're just parenting in the organic way that you did even when you were under one roof.
Karen McNenny [00:13:35]:
Are you picking up John today? I've got the baseball team covered. We gotta divide and conquer. I'm gonna be out of town. Oh, a work thing came up. Oh, we've got family coming into town. Could I have the kids over the weekend so that we can all celebrate with those aunties and uncles? And we flex and we move, and that is when I see best practice is when the parents still accommodate each other. And in doing so, they accommodate the children rather than this rigidity. I recently had my daughter as a guest.
Karen McNenny [00:14:07]:
She asked to be a guest on my podcast, The Good Divorce Shirt. 18, adult, off to college, finally living in one place. She had lived across 2 homes in 12 years. She says, I got some things to say, mom. I said, I'm gonna do. And there was a point in that interview when I referenced our parenting plan, and she said, woah. Woah. Woah.
Karen McNenny [00:14:28]:
Wait. Wait a minute. There's a parenting plan? Would that make a plan? I'm like, oh, yeah. And you'd be astonished what's on it and how it's lined out. She never knew that there was a parenting plan. And that was such a a gift to her father and I to know that we had gotten that part right. And parents, I think another, you know, asking where do we get it right, where do we get it wrong, is this idea that, you know, I I come from a theater background originally in my training moves ago, but there's on stage and off stage. And there's things that happen backstage that you never want your audience to see or
Leah Hadley [00:15:09]:
hear. Right.
Karen McNenny [00:15:10]:
Well, our children are our audience, even our community and how we speak about our former spouse, how we speak about our experience of divorce publicly. So backstage, offstage is an important place for those conversations to happen that don't need to involve other people to add drama to it or for our children to feel burdened at trying to make it better for their parents. That is not our responsibility.
Leah Hadley [00:15:38]:
Right. Absolutely not. Yeah. So many good practices there, Karen. Now I know you've talked about what you see divorce first as a family matter and not a legal one in the past. Talk to us a little bit about why you see it that way.
Karen McNenny [00:15:55]:
Yes. And and you and I have talked about this, Lee. As soon as people recognize, oh, we're we're gonna get divorced, they think I first thing, I gotta call a lawyer.
Leah Hadley [00:16:07]:
Right? Like,
Karen McNenny [00:16:08]:
I I gotta move in and and get a lawyer. And part of that is because not only the social norms, but I would also say media. What we see in films, TV, as well as, the front page of People Magazine. Right? We all put a lot of drama and legal emphasis on divorce. And, absolutely, there is a legal component. The irony is that I could go get married tomorrow, and in the course of an hour, I would have the paperwork. I could sign it. I could submit it to the court, and I'd be married.
Karen McNenny [00:16:43]:
Getting divorced is very complicated, and I think a lot of people underestimate sort of what that union is from a legal standpoint and how complicated it is to unwind that. Now because I'm trained as a therapist, a divorce coach, a co parenting specialist, and a mediator, I'm kind of a one stop shop for my clients. And then we call the lawyer once a lot of decisions have been made. Because we're talking about family homes, selling real estate. We're talking about that first move into 2 homes and being really intentional about the schedule. We're talking about the conversation that's gonna happen with children and family members and school teachers that a divorce is gonna take place. In many ways, I become project manager, communications director, and risk management. Do no more harm.
Karen McNenny [00:17:37]:
And we build out those conversations, moving from 1 on 1 to then together, the 3 of us, so that mediation is happening gradually and over time. And when we know we've got triggers that might send somebody off into, conflict, we can back off of it and say, you know what? Let's just sit on this until next week, and we're gonna come back to it. And I don't like to draw things out. You know, I think sometimes when you're working with a lawyer, you don't always get access to them. They're ping ponging back and forth. Lawyers are talking, and the people that it actually affects aren't in the room having the conversation. Right. So that's what's different about that divorce coaching that is cohesive with with the couple is that we're making decisions.
Karen McNenny [00:18:24]:
We are collaborative from the word go, which doesn't mean they're always in agreement. And then I can tell a couple, you know, let's let that simmer, that conversation about, you know, the favorite minivan of the family and who's gonna end up with it. And then I can go back and talk to each of them individually and find out, oh, dad just wants the minivan because mom loves it. And mom wants the minivan because she's the one who does most of the carpooling. So I can talk to dad and help him see his blind spot and to realize, is there something else? Like, you do you wanna be right? Or do you wanna make this right? I'm gonna help you make it right for your kids. Do you wanna become the minivan dad who's doing all no. I don't want the minivan. I don't wanna I'm not even avail I'm the one running, you know, the the business and keeping everybody funded.
Karen McNenny [00:19:19]:
I don't have time to do the carpool. I'm like, okay then. What are you fighting for?
Leah Hadley [00:19:23]:
Right.
Karen McNenny [00:19:24]:
You're fighting for something. It's not actually the minivan. So when that conversation can happen progressively, then we come back and we realize mom's gonna keep the minivan. Then we just go tell the lawyer, here's the list of assets. Minivan goes to mom. Rather than 2 lawyers who are trained to battle for everything that you want and to get you the most, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing or that it's beneficial for the family.
Leah Hadley [00:19:55]:
Yeah. So many important points that you made there, Karen, about really focusing on the family and helping them to achieve results that are in all of their best interests, rather than really creating that dynamic of, tension and adversity and all of that. That when you do focus on it as just a legal practice, we often see, it becoming contentious when it just isn't necessary.
Karen McNenny [00:20:22]:
It's not necessary. And knowing the the team that we need, you know, and lawyers are one piece of it. Your team, Leah, become a really important piece looking at not only the financials as we're unraveling them, but now what do we do with these buckets of money after the fact? How do I become a single income household with stability? How do I invest that money so that it's working for me as I'm recuperating financially? Because it is a hello, awakening when you go from a 2 income household to a single income household. Or maybe you were only a single income household, but you're the partner who's never managed the money.
Leah Hadley [00:21:02]:
Right.
Karen McNenny [00:21:02]:
We need to work through that. And and again, I am in honor, in respect of our legal community that supports families. But you probably need a financial adviser. You might need a coach, a co parenting specialist, a real estate agent, a life coach as you maybe are reinventing and you were working part time or not at all while you were raising kids, and now you need to go back to work. And where is that pathway? So there's lots of people who come together that make the divorce experience beyond an act of a legal document. That's just a thing we have to do. And lawyers are not equipped typically, not trained to dive into those things. And most of the time, they don't they don't want anything to do with it, which is why I get calls from lawyers like, Erin, I've got clients who need your support.
Karen McNenny [00:22:00]:
We need to be in partnership to help them, so that we can help them do the right thing, not just walk away and feel like they won.
Leah Hadley [00:22:09]:
Yeah. Absolutely. That's such a good point. And it's so interesting. So few people realize that having a team of professionals to really support you can actually be a lot less expensive than just working through attorneys.
Karen McNenny [00:22:23]:
This is such a paradigm shift. You know? Like, oh, I'm gonna work with a coach every week for months or and then I'm gonna have this real estate person and a financial person. But the reality is that we're gonna abbreviate your process. I don't like people sitting in the messy middle of divorce. Right. More harm can be done. More ideas start to pop. Let's get you in and out and on to the next thing.
Karen McNenny [00:22:47]:
I think of it like this little storm cloud that follows you around. And when there's a storm cloud, you don't know when the lightning's gonna strike. You don't know when the thunder's gonna roar. So we wanna move that storm cloud out. And, you know, in my case, speaking about money and the anxiety around money and getting divorced and, you know, lawyers come with their training. They often have a big firm with a lot of overhead. They're charging the fees that they need to fee. And, honestly, there's some who believe if I can create a contentious litigious experience, then I'm gonna have that client for a longer stretch of time.
Karen McNenny [00:23:23]:
Mhmm. That's not my goal ever. It is to get you in and out to such a degree that sometimes I work hourly, but for the most part, I've now shifted to there's a monthly fat flat fee. So you you know what it's gonna be. And if it's a Saturday night panic attack, oh, I wish I knew how to take care of this thing. But if I email my lawyer, it's gonna be $52 for every 2 sentences, and then there's gonna be $10 for a Xerox and then a paralegal fee and ching ching, and it's just this meter that's running all the time. So people, either they run out of funds before they're done and then they start with a big debt or they're going to friends and family to pay for their divorce experience, or they don't ask the questions when they come up, or they don't get the support that they need to take care of those high, conflict moments. So my clients know what that flat fee is depending on kind of the scope of work, if you will.
Karen McNenny [00:24:27]:
And then they know that at least twice a month, they're each gonna meet with me 1 on 1. And at least twice a month, I'm gonna meet with both of them as a couple. And then if I think something is kind of a hot spot and it needs to get addressed sooner than later, I am the first to call them up and say, hey. We need to huddle up.
Leah Hadley [00:24:48]:
Mhmm.
Karen McNenny [00:24:48]:
And they don't see me as just generating more billable hours.
Leah Hadley [00:24:53]:
Right.
Karen McNenny [00:24:53]:
Me working towards best practice and best outcome. And then they can email. They can send a text. A lot of time, I do ghost writing for my clients. You know, the email that you wrote, and you can hear your fingers on and your jaw is tight. And I'm like, do not send it. Write it. Send it to me.
Karen McNenny [00:25:15]:
We'll talk about it. Again, you can spew all of those big feelings. Be witnessed in it. Get it out. And then we're gonna go back and take that 10 page email that you just wrote and turn it into 10 sentences that actually matter and that need to go to your former spouse. And we learn. Right? That's it. I'm we're learning how to be a divorced family.
Karen McNenny [00:25:41]:
What what is the communication that we get sent? What did what what's essential? How do we pull back on the emotional? Who who can we trust in our inner circle to work with? How how do we forecast the changes that are gonna happen? Because I I certainly know in my story, when we had a 5 and a 7 year old, there was a lot of communication all the time because they're little.
Leah Hadley [00:26:06]:
Right.
Karen McNenny [00:26:07]:
And then, oh, I have to get back into a deep conversation with my spouse because now we have teenagers. And there's a different set of rules and do those go across both homes and our expectations around curfew and homework and grades. Oh, and now they want a driver's license. Are we in agreement about them getting the driver's license? Oh, and now they're gonna have a car. How are we, as parents, gonna pay for the insurance and the upkeep and the snow tires and the gas and what responsibility is the kids and what responsibility is ours. So we're in negotiations again even though we were divorced 8 years ago.
Leah Hadley [00:26:47]:
Right.
Karen McNenny [00:26:48]:
Oh, and now those same kids are going to college. We have to fill out a FAFSA form. We have to bring all of those financials back onto the table and talk again. Meanwhile, our kids are rejecting us, and some people blame that on the other parent. Going through adolescence is a whole another thing. Like, hey. You know, our son, our daughter is getting really feisty and really disrespectful. What what do you tell and I'm like, that that's not me.
Karen McNenny [00:27:19]:
I'm getting like, we're all getting it. At which point parents maybe start to become reek rejoined against the common enemy of the teenager. And then those same children are gonna go off potentially and repartner and marry and get homes. And wouldn't it be great if our children never had to think about, can mom and dad both come to Christmas? Oh, we've got a wedding coming up. They they have to sit on opposite sides of like, don't don't do that to your children. You can be unified. And I remind everyone in your listeners today, Leah, there was a love story. There is a love story between you that brought you together, and if in many instances created children and a family.
Karen McNenny [00:28:11]:
And just because that marriage is complete and you're moving through a divorce process doesn't mean you have to disregard every beautiful memory and the celebration of that companionship. You can still hold on to that. And do not let society tell you you have to flush all the good stuff. It's actually really worthwhile to hold on to the good stuff.
Leah Hadley [00:28:35]:
Absolutely. Especially when you're trying to parent together, for sure.
Karen McNenny [00:28:39]:
Yep.
Leah Hadley [00:28:40]:
So, Karen, you have some special support groups going on this month. Can you tell us a little bit about those?
Karen McNenny [00:28:46]:
Yes. I am offering, the good divorce support group, every Friday afternoon, across all the time zones, and you can pop in. You can find out more information at the good divorce coach.comorkarenmcnenny.com or my Facebook or Instagram, the good divorce. People usually can't spell my last name, but they'll remember good divorce because we don't usually put those two words together in a sense. The support group is free for individuals to come and, you know, get a sense of what divorce coaching is, to talk with perhaps some other individuals who are maybe in the early stages of thinking about divorce or just talking with their spouse. Maybe they're in the thick of it, and they're working on their decree and their settlement agreements, or maybe they're post divorce, and they're negotiating some of these parenting challenges. So before, during, after, I touch on all of those pieces of, the divorce experience. And you can sign up right online and join me there.
Karen McNenny [00:29:46]:
It's a great opportunity to to meet with me and hear a little bit more about my process. But, also, anyone who's curious about working with me, I offer a 1 a 1 hour free consultation. I know most people are like, an a full hour every And if the couple can't get on the phone with me together, I'll talk with each of them individually. This is such an important decision about how you're gonna navigate your divorce. And and we go out and we just Google and we pick and there's a lawyer's name. And I really think that the selection process through divorce and the team that supports you should be at least as devoted as the selection process for new shoes. Right. You're gonna try on a couple pairs.
Karen McNenny [00:30:31]:
Is this the right size? Maybe I should walk around in it. I wanna make sure it's a good fit. And that's all I ever encourage people to do is find the right fit. And I may not be the right fit for you, but I'm gonna spend an hour with you so that we can find out. And, honestly, you might not be the right fit for me. And like you, Leah, there is a niche group of individuals out there in the world who want to have an intentional divorce, who want to do it with compassion and kindness for their former spouse and their children, who ultimately want a good outcome, not an explosion that blows up their whole life. We're the sorts of people who wanna support you in that process. It can be done.
Karen McNenny [00:31:11]:
Yes. It can be done. Process. It can be done.
Leah Hadley [00:31:15]:
Yes. It can be done. Absolutely. Karen, I so appreciate you being with us today and sharing so much wisdom and strategies, and this was just super helpful. Thank you so much.
Karen McNenny [00:31:27]:
Thanks for having me and wishing you and your clients all the best in their journey. Thank
Leah Hadley [00:31:33]:
you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
