Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention.
Leah Hadley [00:00:24]:
Welcome back to intentional divorce insights. I am thrilled to welcome back Liesel Darby. You may have heard her last episode with us, but in case you didn't, Liesel Darby is an integral part of our, team here at Intentional Divorce Solutions. She is a seasoned divorce coach and mediator. She has a background in mental health counseling and substance abuse recovery, and she is a certified life coach. So she brings a wealth of knowledge and skills to this important conversation that we're having today, all about mastering the art of communication with a difficult or soon to be difficult x. Welcome, Liesl. Thanks for being here.
Liesel Darby [00:01:06]:
Thank you, Leah. Always happy to be here.
Leah Hadley [00:01:10]:
So Liezl, tell us a little bit about who are we talking about when we say a difficult soon to be x.
Liesel Darby [00:01:16]:
Excellent question. I wanna break this into 2 different 2 different levels of difficult soon to be exes. Okay? First of all, we all know that when we're going through a divorce, we may not always be at our very best. I know that was certainly true for myself. I'm usually a very well grounded, calm, delightful person. And I remember when my my ex told me that that he wanted out, I I didn't want to cooperate. And I he was saying things like, when you're ready to talk, we'll, you know, discuss all this stuff. And I'm thinking, I don't wanna talk to you.
Liesel Darby [00:01:57]:
So I dug my heels in a little bit, but it was situational, you know. So if if you if your soon to be ex is normally, a pretty decent person and pretty reasonable and, you know, just maybe you grew apart or, you know, there are other reasons why people split up. But, you know, they're they're being difficult because they're in this situation. There, there's one group of techniques to talk about that person. Now, there's another level of difficult person. And when we're talking about this type of person is this is like who they are. It's part of their personality. Don't wanna throw away the, you know, don't wanna throw around the narcissist word too casually, but that would certainly fit this description.
Liesel Darby [00:02:42]:
You're dealing with somebody who it's they're generally difficult to deal with, like, on a day to day basis and may have been after you got past the honeymoon phase of your relationship. There's other techniques to deal with those, but you know who these people are. So, you know, somebody, you know, even the thought of communicating with them just makes you feel sick. Maybe you get nervous, you start sweating, you know, you you notice that your your jaw is clenched up or your shoulders are clenched. There, you know what's going to come. There's going to be belittling, there might be some blaming, all kinds of accusations. They're dismissive of your point of view. They might stonewall you.
Liesel Darby [00:03:27]:
You feel intimidated, having any kind of a, you know, a difficult conversation with them. And you sometimes you feel like they make you feel like you did something wrong or you've that's how you feel when you're talking to this person. So that's who we're talking about. Just there's 2 different levels and I wanna talk about 2 different ways to deal with them. But that's how you know when you're dealing with a difficult person, soon to be us.
Leah Hadley [00:03:51]:
Okay. So what are some effective techniques for dealing with the soon to be ex when it's just due to them going through this stressful time?
Liesel Darby [00:04:00]:
Yeah. Empathy will actually get you kind of far. If you can put yourself in their shoes and say things like, you know, I know this is really difficult, you know, or I know this is hard for you. Just something to let them know that you're not gonna, you know, you you you're not interested in having a drag out fight with them. One of the better things you can always do is just remain calm. So don't fight fire with fire. If somebody's coming at you and they're very upset, don't match that level of intensity. The more you can just kinda pull back and and keep your voice calm level.
Liesel Darby [00:04:38]:
And speaking of that, there's a nice technique that people can use that you usually don't think about, but it's really effective. If somebody's kind of really upset and their voice is very, their tone is very intense and very angry, if you can come in just like maybe slightly under that level of intensity and start talking to them, and then you gradually bring your tone of voice down, they'll follow. And they notit's not a conscious thing, butbut they'llthey'll start to match you and you can deescalate, tense situation pretty nicely with that technique.
Leah Hadley [00:05:12]:
That's a great strategy.
Liesel Darby [00:05:14]:
Yeah. I've used it before and it does work. One of the other things to do is just be, use the BIFF method, the BIFF method, that's brief, informative, friendly, but firm. So again, you're not getting dragged into the emotional part of it. You're not getting upset. You're not trying to one up somebody or prove that they're wrong. Just simply state what you need to tell them, again, very calmly, and just keep it just like just the facts. Just just something like that.
Liesel Darby [00:05:45]:
Other things you can do to if you're trying to deescalate a situation again is, acknowledge your perspective. You know, sometimes Remember people wanna be heard. And so if you can just kind of take that little extra step to just say, you know what, I I can see how you, you know, how this is looking to you from from your perspective. I get it. You know, again, just just so that they know you're not coming at them head to head because remember you're trying to have a conversation with them for a purpose usually, and it should be for a purpose. And if you can keep that in the back of your mind, like, what am I trying to get out of this? And the best way for me to get what I want is to be able to have a conversation with this person where they can be more reasonable and we can talk like adults and not, you know, have a screaming, crying fit since everybody stomps off in opposite directions. So, nothing you do is validate their feelings, you know. And again, it's just something as simple as, you know, I know you're frustrated.
Liesel Darby [00:06:50]:
I know you're angry. Anybody would be angry with if they're dealing with this. Or I know you're frustrated. This is a very frustrating situation. Again, just let them know that you're hearing what they're saying. And if you can do it from acknowledging their point of view, their perspective, validate their feelings. Also another thing you can do if you're having a face to face conversation with somebody is be aware of your body language.
Liesel Darby [00:07:17]:
Just something as simple as not crossing your arms. You know, make a make a conscious decision to keep your arms uncrossed. Keep your hands relaxed. Relax your body. If you know that you're getting all tensed up, one of the things I can tell you to do is notice where that tension is, and then even clench it a little bit tighter for the count of 3, and then physically relax it. That does a lot of things to help just get that energy out of your body, and you'll feel it, and you'll be more aware of it. So a lot of this is just being very aware of how you're presenting to this other person and where your intention is coming from. And if you can, if you can show appreciation for something that they've done, that goes a long way too.
Liesel Darby [00:08:03]:
Gee, I really, you know, it was really great that you were able to get the kids back on time. I really appreciated that you're very conscious of their time. You know, I really appreciate that you you make sure that all their toys are making it back and forth when they come back. I really appreciate. Something that you can sincerely say, I appreciate this about you. Well, all of this goes to just kind of softens any kind of attack that they're coming at you with and just keeping that pathway for communication open, which is what you want. Right? Keep in mind what is your end goal result here.
Leah Hadley [00:08:36]:
So many great strategies there. Thank you, Liesel. But we do know that there are some people out there where these techniques just don't work. What do you do?
Liesel Darby [00:08:49]:
Yeah. So if you're rolling your eyes at all these suggestions, yeah, if I tried that with my person, while they're standing there screaming and ranting and raving, they're just going to keep going and beat me down. So this is what we're gonna talk now about different kind of person here who's who this is who you've been dealing with pretty much your whole time that you've been with this person, and it might even be the reason that you're going to be going through a divorce, to be quite frankly. So, yeah, we need a different we need a different set of tools for dealing with these people. Now, I wanto to say something about change because if you if you've been with somebody who's who's difficult like this for for years, and you have established a pattern of communicating with them, maybe, you know, you always feel like you're walking on egg shells, and so you don't want to get them upset. Or that you, you know, they start in on you and you quickly match that intensity and you're off and running and nothing gets resolved and, or you're feeling like, oh gosh, I I can't voice my opinion because I know it's gonna be twist it around and, you know, I always end up feeling horrible after these kinds of things and now that we're trying to, you know, maybe co parent with kids, we're trying to figure this out. It's just, it's really difficult. Maybe this person is bombarding you with emails or texts or blowing up your phone, as a, you know, a harassment method even.
Liesel Darby [00:10:18]:
I've seen that many, many times. So here's your number one goal, is to end the conversation. Get in, get out. Okay? Always have a goal in mind of what you are trying to relate to this person. And then here's where you're a BIFF, your BIFF, technique is going to come in really handy. It's just gonna be informative. It's very brief. You can still be friendly, but you're also gonna be firm.
Liesel Darby [00:10:52]:
So boundaries are very, very important when we're talking about dealing with these kinds of people. You have to set firm boundaries, and when you set firm boundaries, the best thing I can tell you is be consistent. Don't set a boundary that you have no control over enforcing. So and you have to enforce it. If you set a boundary, you have to enforce it because if you don't, all you've taught this person is that you don't mean what you say. And that if they harass you or badger you enough about what you've just set down, they will get their way. So consistency is very, very important and what I was starting to talk about is change. I want to do a little bit here about change So if you are if you have a long pattern of this is how we've always communicated, and you are now going to put it for some of these strategies, I want you to be prepared that your person is not going to like this because it means that they're losing control over you.
Liesel Darby [00:11:50]:
Okay? And for these kinds of people, control is a big deal. So the minute that you start doing something different, they're like, oh my gosh, what's happening here? I gotta get her back. Gotta get this person back into my control, and they will ramp up their efforts or this of this behavior in an effort to get you back to behaving like you usually were. And so I just need you to understand that when you're I'm gonna talk about some other things too. When you start to implement these strategies, they're they're not gonna like it. They're gonna ramp up, and you just need to be prepared and expect that that's gonna happen. But I promise you that if you are consistent with these, eventually they're gonna get bored and and things will calm down. I'm gonna teach you how to take the emotions out of this and you're not gonna be fun anymore.
Liesel Darby [00:11:48]:
Okay So some of the other things you can do, we're gonna talk about the gray rock method and the yellow rock method. You may have heard of these before. It's I want you to become as boring as a gray rock. Truly, that is your intention. I want you to become as boring as a gray rock Because for these kinds of people, they thrive on the drama, they thrive on the chaos, and their intention is to get you involved in some kind of a, an exchange where they know you're upset and that's their that's their purpose. So you're not gonna give it to them. You're gonna be very very boring And again, all of all I'm saying is just don't be emotional. Just be very dry.
Liesel Darby [00:13:18]:
What do you need to say? And you gotta keep doing that, and they're gonna be like, what the heck is going on here? And they're not again, they're not gonna like it, but you keep doing this and I guarantee you, they'll get bored. Now, yellow rock is just a little bit more warmth to it. So let's say, an email with your soon to be ex using a yellow rock technique might be something as simple as, hey, John. Hope you're having a great day. I just wanna let you know that Johnny has a doctor's appointment next Wednesday at 3 in case you wanted to be there. Have a great day. Thanks. Bye.
Liesel Darby [00:13:51]:
And that's it. So it's it's not totally cold, but it's just very factual. And if you I had people say, well, won't the judge always remember that somebody might be reading your stuff. Won't the judge think that I'm, you know, not being cooperative? Like, no. You're giving information, and here's another point. Get everything in writing. If you're dealing with this kind of a person, all of your communication should be in writing because I will tell you, I don't know how many times somebody has told me, oh, no, I got this. He wants to talk, you know, about something when we exchange the kids.
Liesel Darby [00:14:33]:
I'm like please don't do it, please don't and then they inevitably come back and say yeah that went south really quick. I was really triggered, you know, I just fell back into my old patterns and I just, you know, it just it didn't work and like, Yeah, everything in writing. And if you have something like our family wizard or talking parents, some kind of a parenting app, that you insist on using. And you can always go to the judge and and ask for that, and they will, order that to be used. It's really nice because it's transparent. So anybody from a judge to the lawyers to If you have other professionals involved like maybe a therapist or teachers, everybody can see what's being said, so you avoid the he said, she said, there's no gaslighting involved, everything is is on record, and you know as long if you're using a yellow rock technique, anybody looking at this will say, well, you're being reasonable. You're being nice. There's nothing nasty here because as we all know, a lot of times these kinds of, personalities will try to paint you, you know, to other professionals as you're crazy, you're out of your mind, or you're just unreasonable and uncooperative.
Liesel Darby [00:15:45]:
And if everything that you've put in writing to the to this person is very nice, like, hey, hope you're having a good day. Oh and use hey because it's a psychological equalizer. It's a small thing but use it. Hey, John. Hey, Vanessa. It's friendly. No. There's no problems with using hey.
Liesel Darby [00:16:04]:
Please use that. And then again, just keep it very brief. I don't you you don't wanna be sending messages over 200 words. That's not a lot. And also I want you to remember this. Sometimes no response is a response. Right? You are legally only required to answer questions if they're asking about the kids' education, medical stuff, or their general well-being. If they're sending you rants and raves and accusations and all these sorts of stuff, you don't even have to respond to that.
Liesel Darby [00:16:37]:
In fact, I would really encourage you to not respond to that. And if there's not a question in there, you don't have to respond to it. So scan it. I know a lot of, people have said, oh, I get sick in my stomach just even seeing an email with this person's name on, I get sick. I'm like, well, you don't have to respond right away either. That's another point. You're not at this person's beck and call, you're not their secretary, You you should be out living your own life, finding joy wherever you can, but you're not at this person's beck and call and it's perfectly okay to check your messages maybe once a day. Maybe you can even get to the point where you only check them once a week.
Liesel Darby [00:17:19]:
You know, once things kinda calm down and you're further into this process, it's okay to do that. If it's an emergency, they'll get hold of you, And that's a different story. I'm not talking about emergencies. And just because somebody says it's an emergency, doesn't mean it's an emergency either. Because I've seen people try that that play too. It's like, oh, no, not not everything is an emergency right? You can use your discernment here. So you know those are those are just some things. Oh, here's another thing.
Liesel Darby [00:17:19]:
If you, they're coming out of me now. If you feel like you really need to respond, well, first of all, if you feel triggered, like if you're feeling sick to your stomach or you wanna you get the fight or flight response going or you feel yourself shutting down, go do something else. Go take a walk, go walk your dog, go for a run, go take a bath, go do some meditation, do something to get into a better spot. Then you can write down your response. Say everything you wanna say and if that includes calling them some names, go ahead, but don't send it. And in fact, please don't write this out as a text where you can actually hit, you know, send. Don't do that. Pen and paper.
Liesel Darby [00:18:30]:
Write down what you want, and then either burn it or just throw it away. Don't send it. Then you can write it again, then go back through and edit out any feeling words. So we're looking for adjectives and adverbs. Those are the color words. Right? Go through, take all those out. Still don't send it yet. Give it some time.
Liesel Darby [00:18:29]:
Come back with some fresh eyes later, and again, if there's anything emotional in there, take it out. And you can get really good at this relatively quickly. But again, if you have been used to getting into it with your person, every time that anything comes up, this might it's gonna feel weird because anytime you do anything different, we feel weird. So you gotta be consistent with this for at least, 21 days. If you back fall, that's okay. It happens. Nobody does this perfectly going forward. But it will set you back.
Liesel Darby [00:19:24]:
Okay? So it just keep in mind that it is important to be as consistent as you can, but if if you slip, it's okay. It's not the end of the world, but it might take you a little bit longer to get back to where you were.
Leah Hadley [00:19:23]:
So many good tips and strategies, Liesel. Like, that was just so much gold. No. That's fantastic. What is the most important thing for people to keep in mind when communicating with this person?
Liesel Darby [00:19:51]:
I'm gonna go back to the first thing I said, and that's get in, get out. End that conversation.
Liesel Darby [00:19:56]:
That is the most important thing and sometimes it might go against everything that's in you like, no, he's I need to defend myself, he's, you know, he's he's lying, This person's making accusations, and and people are if I don't say something, you know, they're gonna think it's true. You know what? Sometimes all you have to say is that's not true, period. You don't have to explain anything? We get into this this thing like I have to do my whole court defense in these emails and texts. Like if I don't defend myself, if I don't explain everything or if if I apologize, you know, it's they're gonna think that I'm guilty of these things that this person is saying, and, like, that's not true. You know, it's not gonna save your defense for for the courtroom if it gets that far. You in these back and forth things, if if they're saying blatant lies, just say that's not true, or I don't agree with that. That's your opinion. Something like that.
Liesel Darby [00:20:57]:
Don't get sucked into it. Get in, get out. End that conversation as soon as you can.
Leah Hadley [00:21:04]:
Okay. Fantastic. And you mentioned that the other person may start to escalate a bit because they feel like they're losing control. How long does it usually take for these techniques to start to work?
Liesel Darby [00:21:16]:
I wish I could tell you. I really do. I've heard from women from from other people who they're like, you know, it's been 6 months, and it's gotten a little bit better, but it's still, you know, the craziness is still there. And like, yeah, it can, it by being consistent with these, first of all, you're gonna do yourself a world of good by just avoiding getting into it with this person, right? You're it's gonna free up a lot of your time. I've heard from people I've worked with with, clients before where they're like, I spend hours just responding to this stuff. I'm telling you, if you can just cut your responses really super short, if you have to only respond to those three things that you legally need to, that your kid's education, their medical, and their general well-being. If you just do those two things, you will free up a bunch of time to go do something fun. Go do something nice for yourself.
Liesel Darby [00:22:25]:
And I'm not even kidding when I say that. You have to be nice to yourself when you're dealing with with somebody like this, and you're going through this not You know, diverse isn't pleasant anyway under the best of circumstances, And when if you're dealing with someone who is really this is their joy in life is to make other people miserable, and to exert control, and, you know, now you're taking away their fun and they're ramping it up and you're like, oh, god. This is this is worse now. Yes. Expect it to get worse, but it's like anything else the more that you practice something and you by doing these techniques, you're distancing yourself by just using these things regardless of how long this other person is going to do it or not do it. You're distancing yourself and you're taking yourself out of that situation so you don't have to feel that stress. So you're adding years to your life just by just by not engaging in the way that you normally would do this. And you can use these techniques with with any difficult person, not just your not just your soon to be ex.
Liesel Darby [00:23:33]:
They work with anybody who's trying to to make your life, miserable. So so it's good stuff. I I use these with people that, you know, try to do this do that technique on me, and it doesn't you know, they don't get very far.
Leah Hadley [00:23:50]:
Because, I mean, there are so much gold here, really. Like, so many good tips and strategies. Liesel recently did an entire hour long workshop on this very topic, for our community members. And, I know she was trying to fit in a lot of what she covered in that workshop in our short time together today. But our virtual support groups are a fantastic way to have access to Liesel and to be able to pick her brain around some of the communication challenges that you may be having. Liesel, could you talk a little bit about the support groups and just tell people what they can expect?
Liesel Darby [00:24:25]:
Oh, yeah. I love our support groups. It's for me, so we right now we have group on Wednesdays at from 3 to 4 EST. We have one on Thursdays from 1 to 2 EST. My groups are small. We cap them at 10. There's room in my groups right now if anybody wants to do that. But it's it's not a structured structured thing.
Liesel Darby [00:24:49]:
So I don't come in with an agenda. It's always about what do you need at that point in time, and we focus on that. And the nice thing about a group is that it it's not just me. It might just mean me and you depending, and some people like that, but it it there's just some powerful, feelings there about, no, you're not the only person going through this. And talking with other group members who've been through the same thing, and they're like, oh, yes. I'm dealing with that too. And I I tried this and and this worked for a little bit, but what did you do? You know, the conversation is it changes. You know, so it's it's with other women who are are dealing with the same thing.
Liesel Darby [00:25:29]:
And, again, just not not feeling so alone as you go through this because, you know, we always go to our family and our friends, especially when this first hits. But, you know, you might be in this for a long haul, you know. And, I was talking to to somebody just the other day, and she was saying that, you know, my family and friends are great, but they're exhausted. They're exhaust it's just as exhausted as I am because it it this keeps going on, and it's just nice to have, you know, someone else to to talk to. That, you know, I'm I'm also as much as I I love my group members, and I've been through divorce too, but I'm still a neutral person. You know, I'm still an objective person, where you can bounce ideas off of it. And it's it's it's a different it's just just a different flavor to it. But really, I I love the groups.
Liesel Darby [00:26:23]:
I love the concept of it. I love the reality of it. So if you've ever and you can try out our group for free. You can sign up for a free group and just to see what it's like. Doesn't cost you anything except for an hour of your time, And I will I guarantee you, I can honestly say that everybody who's been in group feels better at the end of that hour. It doesn't matter what was going on before, it's probably still going on, but you will feel better. And, yeah, who what else can you get? Who can give you something like that?
Leah Hadley [00:26:58]:
I love that so much, and you're right. I mean, when you're going through a difficult time like this, that just as simple as feeling better is huge and feeling like you're not alone. So, Liesl, thank you so much for being here, sharing so many fantastic strategies. Any last words for our audience?
Liesel Darby [00:27:18]:
Hang in there. It does get better. Yeah. It it does get better. My, my very favorite quote, I always say this, is just when the caterpillar thought its life was over, it turned into a butterfly. And I think that is so true. You can feel like, you know, this is never gonna end or you're just at the very you can't get any lower. I I promise you there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Liesel Darby [00:27:44]:
There is joy on the other side. Just might not feel like it when you're in the thick of it. But thousands of women have gone through this and and we are all okay and you will be okay too, but it's you'll get there quicker if you have some support too.
Leah Hadley [00:27:58]:
That's right. That's right. Thank you all for listening today, and we will see you next week.
Leah Hadley [00:28:04]:
Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey. If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
