Leah Hadley [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Intentional Divorce Insights. I'm Leah Hadley, certified divorce financial analyst, accredited financial counselor, and the founder of Intentional Divorce Solutions. I'll be your guide through the complexities of divorce, finance, and emotional wellness. Join me as we uncover practical tips and empowering insights to help you navigate your divorce with clarity and intention. Hi there, and welcome back to intentional divorce insights. I am thrilled to welcome our guest today, Nora Marcus, who I was able to meet through a a friend that we have in common. And I was just so excited when I met her, her energy. I think you're really gonna enjoy getting to know her today.
Leah Hadley [00:00:42]:
She is a New York based social worker, co parenting specialist, divorce coach, collaborative professional, and mediator. So she has lots of skills and tricks up her sleeves. And no matter the project at hand, many tenants of her training converge resulting in compassionate solutions to complex human problems. Through active listening and actionable recommendations, she supports families and individuals as they find choice, voice, and purpose through their divorce. Oh, I love that. Nora also works with parents to create sustainable child first co parenting structures and solutions that are unique to their families. Welcome, Nora. Thank you so much for being here with me.
Leah Hadley [00:01:22]:
Tell us a little bit about how you got into the work that you're doing, Nora.
Nora Marcus [00:01:30]:
My social work training has been with me for a long time, but after going through my own divorce, and really realizing that there are gaps in services for families, I decided to really refocus my own career on helping families navigate through these transitions that many people find themselves in without ever thinking they would be at a crossroads like this. And I do believe that with the proper support, people can get through a really difficult time and end up on the other side in a way that feels peaceful to them. This is not an easy transition, but it can be better if you have the right supports and you're able to navigate, in a way where you can find meaning, and focus on your kids. Because I think when people stay focused on their kids, there are no wrong decisions.
Leah Hadley [00:02:39]:
I love that. And that's such a good point. It's something that we talk about a lot with intentional divorce. It's just having the right people in place to support you, to really help you through this process because there are a lot of challenging moments. And your lawyer isn't the person who's gonna help you through all of those things. They're trained to provide you with good legal advice. Mhmm. But sometimes there are other professionals who are better trained to support you in different areas.
Nora Marcus [00:03:05]:
Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:03:05]:
And so I'm excited to hear you talk a little bit about what a co parenting specialist does, Nora. What is a co parenting specialist?
Nora Marcus [00:03:12]:
A co parenting specialist. I went and got special certification so that I could really be best in service of families. A co parenting specialist is somebody who can do co parenting counseling, like I can because I'm a licensed social worker, which would mean sitting with parents. And you might hire me or work with somebody like me to figure out how to tell your kids that you're getting divorced. You would work with a co parenting specialist to help craft a parenting plan. You might form a relationship with a professional like myself who will help you with issues in a post divorce landscape. Right? Life keeps going and things are gonna keep happening. And through this process, being able to work with somebody, there are so many little things that really do belong in parenting plans that don't end up in there.
Nora Marcus [00:04:08]:
And everybody ends up suffering after, right? Because we don't have parenting plans that grow with families, right? You might get divorced and you could have a 2 year old and a 4 year old, but what's gonna happen when your kids are teenagers, right? Your current situation may not may not work. And the idea of working with a co parenting specialist ultimately is to keep children always at the forefront of the discussion. Right? Does this work for our kids? What's it gonna be like for them? And can you write a parenting plan that's gonna be sustainable in your real life? Right? You could be sitting in a lawyer's office and you work with so many families that are going through divorce. Right? And you could it's lovely to write something down, but can you execute that in your day to day life? Right?
Leah Hadley [00:05:02]:
That's such a good point. And especially the point you made about having the parenting plan grow with the children. Because I so often see that as a common mistake that parents make, is they're really looking at what are the needs, what does the schedule look like here and now, but they haven't communicated how that changes as the children's needs evolve and grow. So I'm so glad you said that. Keep going.
Nora Marcus [00:05:26]:
Yeah. No. It's just you you see it too. Right? You could be planning in, you know, finances. You're you're this is like a long game. Right. Right? And being able to meet the children where they are constantly does require some level of flexibility, which is really, really hard. And something I work with parents on is if you're make this is emotional.
Nora Marcus [00:05:49]:
Right? Kids, You can be emotional and not make decisions from emotion. Right. You could be experiencing a range of emotions throughout your divorce. But let's say you're angry at your ex spouse, but now you're making decisions in your parenting plan that are actually not great for your kids. Yeah. Just because it might benefit your ex spouse. And at the end of the day, that's a lose lose for everybody. And most importantly, it's a lose for the kids.
Nora Marcus [00:06:20]:
Yeah. You know?
Leah Hadley [00:06:22]:
Absolutely. Such an important point. One of the other things that you and I have talked about in the past is a lot of families with children with special needs really struggle to create parenting plans because they may not know how those needs are going to evolve over that, you know, as they grow up. Do you have any recommendations for parents as they're thinking about, you know, whether it's special needs or they're divorcing with very young children? How do you make this parenting plan such that it's dynamic enough to address these issues?
Nora Marcus [00:06:54]:
I think that comes with some safe guarding. So let's say you and your ex spouse have a difficult time communicating. You may still have a difficult time communicating Right. Post divorce. You can put language in there that says you have a third party decision maker. Right? So let's say in the example of a child who might be on the autism spectrum, maybe you have their ABA therapist as the third party decision maker for things regarding their therapeutic needs or a guidance counselor at school if you 2 can't come to an agreement. Ideally, we're working towards coming to a place where you can make decisions together.
Leah Hadley [00:07:37]:
Sure.
Nora Marcus [00:07:37]:
But I do think that putting sort of guardrails in place for places that you know, you have difficulties, right, so that we're not falling off a cliff, because because we're gonna come to bumps in the road. Right? Life is still gonna happen. Right? Irregardless of your divorce, your kids are gonna grow up. You know? But to have a language that provides a framework for flexibility, I think sometimes people don't wanna have a lot of language, and there's a fine balance. Right? But to put things in place so that when you are right, you're forward thinking ahead, What's gonna happen when the kids have extracurriculars. Right? And this is where the intersection of finances and parenting plan come into place. It's better, right, to have these things outlined. This is how extracurriculars or for instance, for kids who have special needs or differently abled, there might be many other costs that are being associated with that.
Nora Marcus [00:08:39]:
Right? You might have a parenting plan that's in stages or an agreement that you're gonna revisit every x amount of years certain parts that have to do specifically with your child's changing needs. Right? But these the intersection of the money too. Right? You must see this in your work all the time. If you don't plan for these things, suddenly you have a teenager, let's say, who's on a travel team and you have all these costs associated with it. This is gonna right? Then some then you're coming like this. We wanna avoid parents in a post divorce landscape. We wanna set them up for success. Right? And if there's some guardrails in place, especially surrounding the parenting and the money, because that feels like a sticky spot.
Nora Marcus [00:09:23]:
Right?
Leah Hadley [00:09:24]:
Right.
Nora Marcus [00:09:25]:
You know, in your work, you must see that when you're planning with people.
Leah Hadley [00:09:29]:
There's so many people the travel teams.
Nora Marcus [00:09:33]:
Right? I mean, I also think and I'm curious what you think about this. There's so many things people don't even know what to ask for, and it's not their fault.
Leah Hadley [00:09:40]:
Right.
Nora Marcus [00:09:41]:
Right? If they're better armed with information, this is something you need to put in your financial planning. Right. Or you should really put this in, you know, about travel time with the kids. Maybe they have x amount of weeks of travel time when they're little. And maybe once you set an age when they're older that you say they're allowed more travel time or travel by plane or whatever it is that you come to agreement about, little nuances that we might not even know about, I certainly didn't know about.
Leah Hadley [00:10:13]:
Well, and I think the beauty of working with a co parenting specialist specifically is that you're working with so many different parents on these plans
Nora Marcus [00:10:22]:
that
Leah Hadley [00:10:22]:
you have that experience of seeing how it works in different families and being able to pull from that experience rather than starting fresh every time and just kinda looking at each other and figuring out, like, what does everybody else do? Right? Right.
Nora Marcus [00:10:37]:
And not to fall back on the status quo too, especially if you're a family who's able to stay out of the court system, which I always encourage people. Even if you're so angry, a judge does not know your children. Right? You are the best and foremost expert on your children. And so if you can stay out of court, you can really craft things that work for your family versus having to fall into a notion of, well, this is just how it has to be, or this is the schedule that we need. You actually don't have to do that. If it works in your state and it works for your family, you can create something that is unique to your family structure.
Leah Hadley [00:11:19]:
Well, and I also really like the idea of building in opportunities to revisit the plan. Right? Because if you think about it, if you're if you're married and you're parenting, it's not like you guys have a plan that you never read. Right? You know,
Nora Marcus [00:11:33]:
we plan.
Leah Hadley [00:11:35]:
We have to sit down every summer and figure out what's the summer gonna look like, especially as, you know, my kids are getting older. And so now it's, you know, summer camp for the little one, but jobs for the older ones. And, you know, looking at all of these different schedules and, you know, they start to develop their own independence, their own lives, their own schedules. Right. And being able to sit down and kind of flesh that out and not feel like you're kind of stuck in this box that maybe you created 10 years ago.
Nora Marcus [00:12:00]:
Right? Right. And and created a lot of times in a panic, which is really understandable. Right? When you're in divorce, it's a crisis. Right? It's a huge crossroads in in a family. And so being able to revisit even, like, you're saying if it's parts of it, that could be the summer schedule. That could be setting a date each year that you're saying we don't know our summer plans, but by x date each year, we have to come to agreement about the children's summer plans. And to your work, here's how we're gonna pay for that. Right.
Nora Marcus [00:12:39]:
Right? These things really go hand in hand because, of course, raising children is is expensive. And so it is. Right? And so we right. It's like this is your work. If the kids are gonna go to camp or they're gonna travel or whatever it is that they're gonna do, how are we funding these things? We're setting ourselves up for a better plan going forward with less disagreement because we already have a road map, right, to get us through while we're in 2 separate homes raising our children. Right? That makes it easier.
Leah Hadley [00:13:15]:
Nora, how can parents work to keep the children out of the center? Or excuse me. I shouldn't say out of the center. Out of the middle of their divorce and at the center of their divorce.
Nora Marcus [00:13:26]:
I like to use a visual of the if the children are in the middle, there's a pulling. Right? It's like 2 parents pulling at the kids. Right? That to me is they're grabbing at them. This is when you see people fighting over the time with the kids. In the center, we're holding them with love and care. Right, almost like in the palm of our hands, like a feather, holding them gently at the center. What is in the best interest of the children? Not what's in the best interest of mom or dad or mom and mom or dad and dad depending on your family structure. Right? It the children's needs, if and I like to say it like this, when you're making a parenting plan, it's not my time with the kids.
Nora Marcus [00:14:14]:
It's the children's time with me. Right? We change the language, and we're refocused back on the kids. You could be making think about if you're planning vacation time. This is my time to take the kids away. No. This is your kids' time to go away with you, and how does that travel look for them? What would it be like for them to be far away from their other parent? You know, if you think about lot in lots of states, parents will say they have 3 weeks of vacation with parent a and 3 weeks of vacation with parent b. But if you think about that from the children's perspective, that means they have 6 weeks out of the year with no access to their other parent. Mhmm.
Nora Marcus [00:14:59]:
Right? If you flip it from their perspective and maybe you have a parenting plan where you're week on, week off, and that works for your particular family. But if you think about it from the children's perspective, they're moving back and forth from homes, even the things that belong to a children. Right? Like, they if children have a book and they're bringing it from house to house. I'm not talking about taking a TV off the wall. Right? But, like, the things that belong to them, that's their own stuff. You know, I advise parents the things that your children have, they're allowed to take that with them for irregardless of who purchased it for them. You know, they can bring their things back and forth. They need to have 2 homes where they feel comfortable.
Nora Marcus [00:15:42]:
And if we can keep reframing it back from their perspective, they're people. Right? Yeah. Through a very large transition that they likely had no knowledge of. Right? And and reframing back, well, what's that gonna look like in reality? How will that be for the kids? If they're at ease, the parents are more at ease. You know? But for me, that idea of the pulling or the whole dig, if we're fighting over the kids, we should never be fighting over them, and they have a right to see both of their parents and have a nourished relationship with both parents. The divorce was not their choice.
Leah Hadley [00:16:25]:
I love that image of that sort of gently holding the kids at the center of the conversations that you're having. It's just such a great visual to really help you stay focused on,
Nora Marcus [00:16:35]:
you
Leah Hadley [00:16:35]:
know, putting the children at the center of the conversations.
Nora Marcus [00:16:38]:
Yeah.
Leah Hadley [00:16:39]:
You mentioned earlier a little bit about the benefits of staying out of court during your divorce. I wonder if you could, you know, expand on that a little bit.
Nora Marcus [00:16:46]:
Yes. I think that when you go into a court, I think it's really important to remember that courts automatically are setting us up to be adversarial. Courts were never designed to house family problems. That's not what they were developed for, and they are not necessarily equipped for that now. There are certain cases where people cannot come to agreement and they will end up in court. But I believe that if you can work with your soon to be ex spouse to stay out of court, you ultimately have more say and more control over the trajectory of your divorce. I think it is more amicable. I don't think I know it's more amicable.
Nora Marcus [00:17:24]:
If you're out of court and you're not in a fighting stance, right, you think about it. You're in a courtroom. You're on either side. There's a divider between you. Right? There's an aisle between you when you're sitting in a court. But if you're in a mediation or if you're in collaborative divorce, or you're in just with lawyers and making an agreement to stay out of court, you get to craft something unique to you, to your family. For instance, if you're sitting in an alternative dispute resolution, mediation, collaborative divorce, or agreeing to stay out of court, you can have a parenting plan where the time changes slowly. Right? A you can have a transition plan for your kids.
Nora Marcus [00:18:09]:
Right? Once you've told them you're getting divorced, maybe parent a is moving out of the marital home. It's a big change for the kids. They don't immediately have to go to their final schedule. Right. Okay. We're gonna start with this. In 3 months from now, we're gonna move to this night. Right? And if you are in the driver's seat, I I liken it to this.
Nora Marcus [00:18:31]:
I wouldn't want a stranger making decisions about my kids in in a nondivorced space. Right. Whoever want like, I would never want a stranger making any decisions about my children's lives. And the judges, while well meaning, are strangers to your family. Right. We have lots of cases on their docket, And there's no way that they can know all the nuances of your particular family. Divorce has so many commonalities, but your family and your divorce will be unique to you, and staying out of court allows you so much more freedom. It's also more cost effective to stay.
Nora Marcus [00:19:11]:
Absolutely. Sensitive if we're talking about money. It allows you to be in the driver's seat. Mhmm. And with your kids, if you're a parent, who doesn't wanna feel like they have a say and a holding in what their children's lives are gonna look like? You wouldn't really hand that off to a stranger even if you are married. Right? Right. You wanna be in control of those decisions. And, again, in some cases, it's not possible for people to stay out of court.
Nora Marcus [00:19:44]:
But I do encourage people if they can, yeah, to work towards that goal. In the end, it's better for everybody and divorce is stressful enough. Going to court is way more stressful.
Leah Hadley [00:19:56]:
Absolutely. Yeah. It adds a tremendous amount of stress and even financial strain for a lot of families, unfortunately.
Nora Marcus [00:20:01]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's very expensive to do that from your work, right? People are planning. You don't plan for those kinds of expenses. And it's a really difficult time. And I believe that when you are separated like that, you still have to work with your co parent every day. You're still holding children together. You still have to get up and make breakfast and pack school lunches and go to play dates and birthday parties and figure out sick days.
Nora Marcus [00:20:34]:
Right? That doesn't stop happening. Yeah. Isn't it easier to do that if you haven't just seen each other in court? Right?
Leah Hadley [00:20:42]:
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. You don't have that tension.
Nora Marcus [00:20:45]:
Right. Relieve a little bit of attention. It's like a balloon, right, that's about to pop. You can just let a little bit of the air out, I think, by staying out of court.
Leah Hadley [00:20:54]:
Yeah. Such a good point. So, Nora, I'm curious what tips you have for parents in supporting their children through the divorce and after the divorce.
Nora Marcus [00:21:04]:
I think the most important thing when parents are getting divorced is that they need to come to their children and understand that their children may already be sensing a lot of what's going on. They might not know, right, because of their ages. But to be offering them age appropriate information about the divorce and letting them know what's happening next, Speak surprises and things like that don't work great once you're getting divorced. Right? Kids are routine based. We are all routine based. Right? Even adults. Right? You might, every morning drink out of your same coffee mug or whatever it is that you do. You have your routine.
Nora Marcus [00:21:43]:
Right? You could if your routine goes off, you're not gonna feel great. You know? And so I offer that about children too. Right? We wanna tell them in an age appropriate way. We wanna start off with open communication, and I offer to parents that divorce is not a singular event. This is a lifetime event. And so we have to keep meeting our children. You might get divorced when your kids are 24. Suddenly, your kids might be 10 and 12, and they're gonna have a whole slew of other questions.
Nora Marcus [00:22:16]:
The 2 year old probably will have zero recollection, and the 4 year old might have zero recollection also of when you told them you were getting divorced.
Leah Hadley [00:22:25]:
Mhmm.
Nora Marcus [00:22:26]:
And so to continue to meet your children where they are is the, to me, the single most important thing that parents can do. There are no bad questions. There are no wrong questions. And if you don't know how to answer a question about your divorce or what's happening, you can say to your child, you know what? It's a really good question. And mommy needs to think about how I'm gonna answer you. You might not have the answer right away, or maybe you need to talk to your ex spouse about how you wanna answer them. You know, so I think starting off with appropriate honesty, information that children can digest, Right? And working together with your ex boss, even when it's hard, even when it's hard, I offer to people to drop the rope, drop the rope. Right? You don't have to engage in difficult behavior with your co parent.
Nora Marcus [00:23:24]:
You cannot control them, but you can control how you show up, and ultimately, that is one of the best things that you can do for your kids. Let them know, I've got you. This is hard. You can't fix their emotions are not a problem that need to be fixed, But holding space for them, a safe place for them, they they might just need a good cry. Right? Have you ever just, like, had a moment where you're like, I gotta I need a little bit of release. I need to cry. Right? You have a moment, and you feel so much better after, or you call a good friend. You're telling them you've had a really tough day, whatever it is that you do to nourish yourself, offering that to your children is so important.
Nora Marcus [00:24:09]:
Right? You can't fix their sadness, but you can say I've got you. It's okay for you to express your emotion. Your emotions don't slip. Like, you're giving them the idea that their emotions are not too much for you because they're gonna have all kinds of feelings about the divorce. Right? And always assuring them if they ask that the divorce is not their fault. Right? These were grown up this is grown up stuff, and that's where working with a co parenting specialist, having a coach, having a therapist that you and your co parent are talking to to help guide you through some of these more difficult things that are gonna come up. And in a post divorce landscape, the navigation of these things, right? Knowing that your children are going to become adults, right? One day make decisions now that when your adult children ask you about them, you can be proud of those decisions that you've made. You can imagine your 30 year old asking you, why did you do that? Or thanks so much for always being there for me.
Nora Marcus [00:25:10]:
I'm so glad I had a great relationship with both my parents. Right? Are your kids are gonna, they're gonna be adults one day. Right. And ask big questions. And we have opportunities to be really proud of the decisions that we're making. But meeting your children where they are throughout the process and after is, I believe, the single most important thing that we can do, honoring their experience and helping them navigate through it. They need tools too. Right?
Leah Hadley [00:25:45]:
You are just such a wealth of knowledge, Nora. I am so thrilled that you were able to join us because I just know that our listeners are gonna get so much value out of this conversation. So thank you so much for being here. Now you have very generously offered to provide a complimentary consultation for people who are interested in connecting with you. Yes. How can they find you?
Nora Marcus [00:26:07]:
They can go onto Instagram, if you're on Instagram at noramarcusconsulting, or they can go to my website noramarcus.com, and there's a contact button. I do I'm offering a free 45 minute consultation to anybody that is going through the divorce process or after or even just contemplating it, even just those whispers in your head, deserve support and space. Right? Even acknowledging that you might be contemplating that your marriage is in trouble. Everybody deserves support. And so I'm happy to offer a free consult to anybody who's coming to me for the first time. This is a it's it's a journey. It's quite a journey. Right? I've been there, and I hope I hope that I can make people feel a little bit less alone and more supported in their divorce process.
Leah Hadley [00:27:01]:
That is so beautiful. Thank you again for joining us today. I do truly appreciate your wisdom and everything that you shared with us. And for our listeners, thank you so much for being part of our community. We will be back next week. Thank you for joining me on Intentional Divorce Insights. It's a privilege to share this time with you. I hope each episode offers valuable guidance to navigate your journey.
Leah Hadley [00:27:24]:
If you find our content helpful, please leave a review to help others discover the benefits of intentional decision making in divorce. Until next time, take care and continue to embrace your path with intention.
